Malaysia Airlines Flight Goes Missing En Route to China - Flight MH370

[Exadios]

Please post the studies... a polite way of saying "I don't believe you"
Well someone did just that in this thread many days ago, a search with Google will also give you much data and information. However you can even generate your own data, a typical human body in free fall reaches a terminal velocity of 120 mph, the limiting factor being drag. Now if you are attached to something like a seat and which has a lower density than your body, drag will increase in relationship to your combined mass and terminal velocity will become lower.

Funny. I thought we where talking about a plane crash. Now you are talking about free falling bodies. How did they exit the plane?

[POR911]

I have wondered if there is any economies in using 'large' passenger a/c for the preliminary search of the Southern Indian Oceans. Say a 777-200LR or similar could economically fly into the area at high altitude. Drop down to 5000 or so and conduct visual searches with many eyes. If any thing seen, drop down further to verify and get exact positioning. Even with terrible fuel economy during this phase, I thought they must be better than the present a/c which can only fly for a few hours in the area at best.

[anterian]

Funny. I thought we where talking about a plane crash. Now you are talking about free falling bodies. How did they exit the plane?

Funny. I thought we where talking about a plane crash. Now you are talking about free falling bodies. How did they exit the plane?

A debris field is the result of disintegration, either in the air, in which case numerous "bodies" not just human bodies exit/depart from the plane involuntarily. If a human body is still attached to a part of the plane structure, even if just a seat, it will reach a lower terminal velocity.
Perhaps I should have used the word "objects" rather than the conventional scientific Newtonian term "body".

[voyager10]

I have wondered if there is any economies in using 'large' passenger a/c for the preliminary search of the Southern Indian Oceans. Say a 777-200LR or similar could economically fly into the area at high altitude. Drop down to 5000 or so and conduct visual searches with many eyes. If any thing seen, drop down further to verify and get exact positioning. Even with terrible fuel economy during this phase, I thought they must be better than the present a/c which can only fly for a few hours in the area at best.

I really dunn’o how it works,.. but I guess,.. besides the visual ( bare ) eyes and binoculars,.. they also have head phones and that also is looking for the ping sound,….with some electronic device connected ( something dropped into the ocean ) ,…( below picture-1 ) Also few air craft has scanners/zoom lenc attached to them with zoom visions and I guess,.. these guys are searching on the monitor,..( the scanned video of the ocean ) rather than with bare vision. ( below picture-2 )
It also seems that, in the suspected areas, they drop the Smokey missiles,…. and later the ship in that area catches up with that smoke and conducts minute observation of any debris seen in that area,....( below picture-3)


.





Indonesian Air Force shows Indonesian Air Force
personnel aboard an Indonesian Air Force military surveillance aircraft on March 11 over the
Straits of Malacca

A crew member prepares to throw a GPS tracking buoy into the Southern Indian Ocean to mark the position of a
solid object in the water, aboard a Royal New Zealand Air Force P-3K2 Orion aircraft searching for missing
Malaysian Airlines flight MH370 March 22, 2014. — Reuters pic

[MIT EE]

As an engineer I have nothing against implementing new technology. But I balk at making the plane unsafer in order to make the SAR more convenient. That is just an example or warped priorities.

Position reporting cannot change the pilot work load. Until the plane is bought under control communication is not part of the pilots work load. In any case the satellite link provides no intentions.

Fighters were scrambled during 9/11. There is no evidence that I know of that they could have ever been in a position to shoot either plane down. But the hijackers did disable the transponders. So why would they have not disabled the satellite uplink as well?

"As an engineer I have nothing against implementing new technology. But I balk at making the plane unsafer in order to make the SAR more convenient. That is just an example or warped priorities."

Then, I think you will agree with me that engineering design is about making compromises. The argument you make now is the very argument that could have been made back when black boxes were first mandated (whenever that was), ie, they won't prevent crashes and they will in fact make "the plane unsafer" in as much they have the potential to cause electrical interference, electrical fire and potential to become a projectile etc etc.

So, the question is, where do you draw the line. Does your position require you to be in favor of mandating a removal of the existing black boxes?

[avox]

If this is a unique case then, presumably, it cannot used as an argument for the general case. So I see no necessity for any new equipment. In any case the only convincing argument for additional equipment is only convincing has a basis in safety.

Another position reporting system does nothing to increase the safety of a particular flight. The only change that these functionality provides is to make the search for the wreckage cheaper and faster.

Pre incident CVR / FDR data might be useful, not as a safety measure for this flight, but, for the safety for aviation in general.

I do not interpret the lack of a mayday as evidence that the VHF system was off. At all times pilots aviate, navigate, and communicate in that order. In fact communication is a low priority. The only reason that, after satisfying the first two requirements, to communicate is to get airspace / clearance.

How about this reasoning:
Something cost the lifes of 239 people of MH370 and we have no idea what.
As long as we do not know what caused the crash, a similar tragedy might cost more lifes.
CVR / FDR is likely to provide insight into the cause.
Since it took so long to find the site of the crash and because of its inaccessible location, the black box might never be found.
A position recording system would have drastically enhanced the chance to recover the CVR/FDR in this case.
Therefore, position recording systems enhance air safety.

[anterian]

I am constantly reading this mantra, " At all times pilots aviate, navigate, and communicate in that order. ". Fine so we need a system which is automatic and completely independent of the pilot, but with access to some or all of the same data and which maintains constant contact with a satellite relay. As to the black box, it's time it was upgraded, I have more data storage capability in my pen drive.

[leedrich]

Satellite Spots New Objects as Weather Slows Flight 370 Search 300 objects of various sizes

[peterhr]

Again, rather than focusing on flight safety, you are focusing on the convenience of the recovery operation.

Please post the studies to which you are referring to.

Perhaps this needs a two stage approach
- the simple one of GPS satellite tracking mandatory on all commercial flights ASAP
- a second one FDR / CVR upgrade for planes 737 size and bigger later ... the later because this would would be much more contentious and would take time to work out what needs doing and to get the necessary approvals. Objections could be reduced by having the uploaded data escrowed - so it can only be retrieved if there is good reason (not employers looking with a fine toothed comb for reasons to fire staff).

Also if FDR/CVRs come in for regular maintenance - maybe they should routinely be upgraded to store much more data

[iazoniccc]

GPS

Perhaps someone can explain to me exactly what disadvantages a simple GPS locator can bring? Many cars now use them for the purposes of insurance policy premium reduction and motor vehicle theft. They present practically zero fire risk due to running at extremely low voltage (2-5v) and are completely independent of the vehicles own power supply. They could also be mounted in fire proofed enclosure just for good measure. Just a little maintenance every few months, low voltage batteries like that would not cost much. The positional log would only ever be checked for either maintenance reasons or in exceptional circumstances when a 100-tonne airliner completely vanishes from the face of the planet. At the very least we would have more of the recommended 30 days to locate the ping instead of using 50% of the pinger's battery lifespan (and millions of dollars) searching the WRONG OCEAN. You do not need an engineering master-class to understand that this makes sense.

[Limpost]

[QUOTE=voyager10;49007]Exadios:

Hope, the U S military base at Diego Garcia, had rather provided a shelter for them,... which is right there situated,...

Voyager 10,

Have you had the time to look at the world map? The search area is about 2500km south west of Perth. The distance to Diego Garcia is more than double that from the search area. I am sure the guys in Australia know that for a fact or do you think that they are dumber than the Malaysians like everyone claims.

[anterian]

Satellite Spots New Objects as Weather Slows Flight 370 Search 300 objects of various sizes

Strange there is a big write up on this in the BBc complete with pictures http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26763358
yet when it references the article in the Nation and we look in the Nation we read just a brief article http://www.nationmultimedia.com/nati...-30230225.html

On 24 March, 2014, THEOS captured images showing some 300 objects in close proximity to the suspected crash site of Malaysia Airlines flight MH 370, in the Indian Ocean. The discovery was reported by GISTDA on 27 March, 2014[

However as someone who lives here, it makes sense, satellites are very politically sensitive in the present political climate here

[peterhr]

Perhaps someone can explain to me exactly what disadvantages a simple GPS locator can bring? Many cars now use them for the purposes of insurance policy premium reduction and motor vehicle theft. They present practically zero fire risk due to running at extremely low voltage (2-5v) and are completely independent of the vehicles own power supply. They could also be mounted in fire proofed enclosure just for good measure. Just a little maintenance every few months, low voltage batteries like that would not cost much. The positional log would only ever be checked for either maintenance reasons or in exceptional circumstances when a 100-tonne airliner completely vanishes from the face of the planet. At the very least we would have more of the recommended 30 days to locate the ping instead of using 50% of the pinger's battery lifespan (and millions of dollars) searching the WRONG OCEAN. You do not need an engineering master-class to understand that this makes sense.

It would something a little better than can be fitted to a car - since it cannot send reports using SMS text - it needs satellite uplink, and GPS is a heavy battery user - so needs a rechargeable system with a trickle charge wire. But SAR would have been in the vicinity of the downed aircraft in hours.

The southern ocean is perhaps the most inhospitable place on the planet, really stormy and cold.

[voyager10]

^ I had no idea, how far Perth supports the other planes, as I was confused, when watched few planes returning all the way back . ( To Malaysia/Indonesia area )

..


PRESS STATEMENT
BY MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT, MALAYSIA

THURSDAY, 27 MARCH 2014, 5:50PM

...
1. Chinese Special Envoy

a. Yesterday, His Excellency Zhang Yesui, the Chinese Vice Minister of Foreign Affairs and Special Envoy of the Government of China, met with the Prime Minister and Dato’ Seri Hishammuddin, the Acting Minister of Transport and the Minister of Defence.

b. Following the meeting with Dato’ Seri Hishammuddin, His Excellency Zhang Yesui also received a comprehensive technical briefing by the international working group, led by the AAIB. Inmarsat’s findings - which led to the conclusion that MH370 ended in the southern Indian Ocean - were explained during the meeting.

c. The Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC) and the Aircraft Accident Investigation Department (AAID) of the CAAC were present at yesterday’s technical briefing. The CAAC and AAID have been, and will continue to be, members of the international working group.

d. Today His Excellency Zhang Yesui also met with the Chinese relatives of those on board MH370 who are currently in KL.

e. Malaysia is committed to working closely with the Government of China and to sharing all information related to MH370 in full.

2. Family briefing in Beijing

a. Yesterday, the Malaysian high-level team met with the Chinese relatives of those on board MH370 who are based in Beijing, for the fourth time. Over the duration of the three hour meeting, the relatives received a technical briefing and an update on the search operation. The high-level team also answered questions. Today, the high-level team met relatives again, at 3:25pm Malaysia time. The meeting is still underway.

b. Malaysia is working hard to try and make the briefings to the Chinese relatives in Beijing more productive. Malaysian officials met with His Excellency Huang Huikang, China’s Ambassador to Malaysia, to request the Government of China to engage and clarify the actual situation to the affected families in particular and the Chinese public in general.

3. Operational update

a. The planned area of search today was 16,298 square nautical miles in the West sector, and 6,506 square nautical miles in the East sector.

b. The area identified by the Malaysian Remote Sensing Agency (MRSA) yesterday – where the 122 potential objects were sighted – was also due to be searched today.


c. Today, nine planes travelled to the search area – five in the East sector and four in the West sector.


In the East sector, searches by air were conducted by:
· two Australian civilian aircraft.

· one Chinese Ilyushin IL-76.

· one New Zealand civil aircraft.

· one Japanese Gulfstream.


In the West sector, searches by air were conducted by:
· two Australian P-3 Orions.

· two Australian civil aircraft.



d. Today six ships were deployed in the search area – one in the East sector and five in the West sector.


In the East sector, searches by ship were conducted by:
· one Chinese ship (the Xue Long).


In the West sector, searches by ship were conducted by:
· four Chinese ships (the Kunlunshan, Haikou, Qiandaohui, and Zhonghaishaohua).

· one Australian ship (the HMAS Success).



e. One Chinese ship (the Hai Xun) is expected to arrive in the search area tonight.

f. Today the weather deteriorated in the search area and search operations were suspended at 11:40am.

4. Malaysian team going to Perth

a. Malaysia is in the process of sending a team, comprised of the DCA, MAS, the Royal Malaysian Navy and the Royal Malaysian Air Force, to Perth. This team will work closely with the Australian Rescue Co-ordination Centre to assist with the search operation.


-ENDS-

[voyager10]

Social News and Photos update,...



.

Malaysia says there's sealed evidence on MH370 that cannot be made public
http://www.straitstimes.com/the-big-story/missing-mas-plane/story/malaysia-says-theres-sealed-evidence-mh370-cannot-be-made-publ( also read, all public opinions underneath )


While these Chinese-Malaysia, conflicts and protests going on, an article came to read : here.