Lear Jets

[Kpin]

Actually, if you look at 90% of the Learjets that pass over the MED, they are NOT equipped with ADS-B and the 'receiver' is MLAT. I have just picked up a third one today, also MLAT, but I know this particular aircraft is a Luxembourg Air Ambulance that flies frequently in and out of Malaga Airport.

MLAT uses replies from Mode A, C and S transponders, as well as military IFF and ADS-B transponders and different transponders report different information back so unless you KNOW for sure the Aircraft is fitted with an ADS-B transponder, how can you tell if data is being blocked by FR24 or anyone else.

In addition, Ressy reported that ALL his Learjets were being type numbered the same and that is NOT the case in my region, I see loads of variations, the Air Ambulance being an LJ45.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]6670[/ATTACH]

Not quite. On FR24 aircraft are only traced with MLAT if they have a Mode-S transponder. Mode A/C does not do the trick. And mode S signals carry the Call Sign (Flight nummer for scheduled flights and registration for General Aviation) plus the 6 digit Hex code issued by ICAO to each aircraft (via the national authority). The HEX code in turn can also lead to the registration.

I think you will not find any business jet like Learjet og Citation on FR2 with call sign, registration or Hex code. That goes for MLAT and ADS-B.
Exception: Citation 550 seems not to be blocked in all cases.

[Oblivian]

Damn, Kpin beat me to posting And I made it longer lol

You are repeating exactly what is being said in a shorter amount.

Actually, if you look at 90% of the Learjets that pass over the MED, they are NOT equipped with ADS-B and the 'receiver' is MLAT. I have just picked up a third one today, also MLAT, but I know this particular aircraft is a Luxembourg Air Ambulance that flies frequently in and out of Malaga Airport.

MLAT uses replies from Mode A, C and S transponders, as well as military IFF and ADS-B transponders and different transponders report different information back so unless you KNOW for sure the Aircraft is fitted with an ADS-B transponder, how can you tell if data is being blocked by FR24 or anyone else.

Normal airport MLAT yes, hobby MLAT uses triangulation from mode-s non GPS enabled data. Still has transponder HEX, Altitude, Squawk
In reality it doesn't matter to a map watcher the source. You've just pointed out what Ressy is trying to relay straight back to you!. It's a flying hunk of metal that *can* optionally be plotted on a map with an icon using 1 of 2 methods. Currently with nothing identifiable in the info box to tell whos flying hunk of metal, or its role be it civil, medical, small scale public transport or otherwise other than its type. And just the type. Even though many are used for the latter.

Every single transponder has a unique ID as the first characters in the string. Regardless of MLAT or full GPS integration, it's there. The transponder HEX is is required and is still known as part of the data packet. That is how the map calculations works out the type to tell you its a LJxx even and give the ability to keep a lock on it to be able to update the selected displayed data. As you may or may not know the type is not broadcast with normal data - its looked up elsewhere.

Just like as you know your example is an Air Ambulance (despite some cases of no icons on screen, or even the hint of one under MLAT with little info other than its type) - you obviously know it, and have its associated registration linked it to the primary key - HEX, just the way it could be done by anyone else. Even on MLAT that information is able to be cross-checked just the same. But on public display it is only married to known its type.

In addition, Ressy reported that ALL his Learjets were being type numbered the same and that is NOT the case in my region, I see loads of variations, the Air Ambulance being an LJ45.

Thats still just a typecode. Not a correctly displayed callsign or linked Registration matching the airframe transponder allocation - which will be known. And hes referring to same and 'all' as not lumped into a particular variant of an LJ, but all roles including their primary role in Australia - innocent air ambulances. They're lumped in with military drone tugs (which are for obvious reasons restricted) and small passenger movements.

Just like your own very example. And his now very expanded by you point - What he is trying to ask... Why is an air ambulance, not shown as an air ambulance with its reg (which will be known). Rather than just showing what sort of hunk of metal it is.


You see?

Ta-da!


Point made. Prepare for thread closure.

[DemonLee]

Oblivion, I get the point, what is being missed is that SOME of the Learjets I see on FR24, do have Callsigns, Reg, some show as being MLAT, some type S and very rarely ADS-B with routes and if that is the case, then FR24 is either not imposing a Blanket Ban on them or if they are, it is not working very well.

[Kpin]

Oblivion, I get the point, what is being missed is that SOME of the Learjets I see on FR24, do have Callsigns, Reg, some show as being MLAT, some type S and very rarely ADS-B with routes and if that is the case, then FR24 is either not imposing a Blanket Ban on them or if they are, it is not working very well.

I will give you this: I found one LJ45 with call sign and registration:
LJ454 RYR1.JPG

I suspect it shows up because it is the executive jet of Ryanair and they use the call sign RYR of ryanair. And that takes precedence.

Other than this I can't find any.

[DemonLee]

I agree, this one might be because the Call Sign of RYR is for Ryanair, but as I have said previously, there are many commercial uses of the Learjets in and across Europe, not all have LJ prefix call signs, some do, mainly private and company executive jets.

The only point I have been trying to make to the original poster who is in Australia is that maybe the Australian Authorites required FR24 to block Australian Registered Learjets and in other areas, it may just be private owners and a few Executive Learjets that have requested removal and not Learjets wholesale and the only people that can give us this answer are the operaters of FR24.

[Kpin]

LJ like in LJ45 is not a call sign. It is the aircraft type, and FR24 use it as a substitute for the Call Sign/registration, for the types they those to block. "Block" as in "Show anonymously" without call sign, registration or hex code.
Go and filter for aircraft (not call sign) = LJ (Learjets), C5 (Citations) or F2 (Falcons) and except for the Citation 550 and the executive jets of airlines you will not find any with true call sign or registration.

[DemonLee]

So what you are saying is that 90% of all aircraft manufactured by Bombardier/Cessna/Dassault are blocked on FR24???

I have to admit, a lot of small aircraft don't show Call Sign/Reg, I had presumed that this was because they were private aircraft that applied to NOT be tracked as is their right, but to block whole groups of manufacturers aircraft en-masse appears a tad extreme.

I have seen Learjets with Call Signs and next one I see I will post, I have also seen a couple of Dassault F7X's with Call Signs as well, seen so many Cessna's can't recall off the top of my head whether call signs were shown or not, will have to keep a look out for them.

[airnrail]

As has been pointed out in this thread earlier, the Boeing business jets are similarly affected - they show up as B737. If anyone is curious there are two of them visible right now both originating from Abu Dhabi - look over southern Thailand or east of Vietnam. They would, I think, be taking world leaders from the G20 in Turkey to the APEC meeting in Manila and one would almost certainly be carrying the Australian Prime Minister.

[Ressy]

I agree, this one might be because the Call Sign of RYR is for Ryanair, but as I have said previously, there are many commercial uses of the Learjets in and across Europe, not all have LJ prefix call signs, some do, mainly private and company executive jets.

The only point I have been trying to make to the original poster who is in Australia is that maybe the Australian Authorites required FR24 to block Australian Registered Learjets and in other areas, it may just be private owners and a few Executive Learjets that have requested removal and not Learjets wholesale and the only people that can give us this answer are the operaters of FR24.

I dont know how *I* can make it any clear to you - There is NO requirement by the Aus govt, there is NO requirement by Careflight (I know this for absolute fact due to my association with them), you either are not reading what is being said or are not understanding, I dont know how to make it any clearer to you, so I shall not bother from this point on - because all I can do is repeat myself and HATE doing that!

[Amper]

Prepare for thread closure.

Closed now.