FR24 boxes priviledged over other boxes/feeders?

[TCASAlert]

Discuss.........

Anmer - very well said on all points! Completely agree with you.

I know how well my own kit works as I run Virtual Radar Server which I still use when away from home (mainly for non-plotting aircraft). I use an RTL dongle, and when I first set it up I got 5-6 aircraft within a few miles. With gradual improvements I am now using the stock antenna stuck to a cake-tin lid as a ground plane, in the top of the loft. This gets me around 250nm range to the south and east, over the North Sea, and around 80 miles to the west, where there is a row of hills in Derbyshire.

I really do not bother about not showing up on the map - and I just don't understand why people are so obsessed with it, I know that I contribute and that's all that matters. As long as the coverage around where I'm looking is good, it doesn't matter who is providing it. If some people are only feeding so they can get an 'ego boost' by seeing their radar then perhaps they are missing the point slightly!

[eddm_muc]

Having startet this thread I just want to point out that I do not belong to the EGO-BOOST group.
I like this hobby and I am happy to contribute and do a lot of testing of the available equipment to see how it works and performs under stress tests like connecting lots of clients to one box

My intention was, to start a nice discussion and at the end to come to the point where everybody talks about this great hobby and why people contribute.
I am happy that this seems to work

[peterhr]

I don't belong to an ego boost group either
- and for the record I do have external antenna that is giving me 270kms range is some directions, half that in others
- but we have so many overlapping stations covering the area, a blanket many layers thick.
- personally I do wonder if I (in central England) actually add anything to the FR24 maps that others don't have covered and from that point of view enhancing my radar is just wasting money (not that I've spent much),
- putting a taller mast under the antenna might increase range but even that would add little to FR24 as a whole.
- it would be different if I was one of the three last men standing here, but to get to that stage something drastic would have to have happened.

- I think FR24 is a wonderful idea and I especially like to see 'T-' radars showing on the map since each one represents a hobbyist who has made a special effort to help the community (something PF is missing) and try to guess (approximately) where they are. I have no doubt that the people contributing via 'N-' radars feel the same but to me it feels less personal and more anonymous. The "F-" radars are a wonderful idea, especially having M-LAT ... but it's sad to see them occluding the 'T-' station radar idents.

I'd still like to see FR24 increase it's cover - especially if it can be done by the efforts of little people and they get the reward of seeing their radar mentioned. That doesn't need FR24 to send out $500 dollar kits - it just needs concise instructions on where to get a $50 kit and how to put it together to help the community. Maybe even something that could be a project for schools.

[FR24support]

I'd still like to see FR24 increase it's cover - especially if it can be done by the efforts of little people and they get the reward of seeing their radar mentioned. That doesn't need FR24 to send out $500 dollar kits - it just needs concise instructions on where to get a $50 kit and how to put it together to help the community.

There have been a number of Flightradar24 Facebook posts inviting applications for a free DVB-T stick for selected areas.

http://www.flightradar24.com/dvbt-stick

[Oblivian]

it just needs concise instructions on where to get a $50 kit and how to put it together to help the community. Maybe even something that could be a project for schools.

Clicked the increase coverage button on the top of the web page recently? Has been there for some time with links to purchase DVB-T sticks.

http://www.flightradar24.com/hardware

/edit beaten by mere minutes!

[fungus]

Peter and others,

I may have created the wrong impression when I omitted to state clearly in my post above that the existence of radars is fluid (just ask SoCalBrian who is trying to keep up with the feeders list and map- I dont know how he manages it. His map does go some way to displaying what Peter is refering to). Radars come and go and having a map of the radars and their coverage could in fact be seen to be counter-productive in encouraging blokes from taking up the hobby let alone uploading to FR24. It may also be technically difficult to establish, to monitor and keep up to date (that's for others to decide). I wasnt necessarily putting anyone in a 'group' of any kind and I hope others dont fall into that trap. Blokes like to monitor the map for all sorts of reasons and seeking to keep an eye on your own radar at times cant be viewed, in my book, as necessarily a negative thing especially if trying to improve your setup. It has of late actually shown that my uploader software (the latest version) is intermitent at times for some reason and I hadnt noticed, so has its benefits. There are, as has been pointed out, a number of ways to monitor your radar but the method selected can depend on the reason for needing to do so.

It's a big pond with a wide variety of fish of all sizes and over time all contribute as radars come and go, maintenance takes place and radars are down and guys like to have a break. The numbers on the map from my own radar vary wildly during the course of a day and over a longer time frame, anywhere from 0 upwards. I know that though only because the radar is displayed on the map and/or can be selected and I think it's a good thing to have. Those who seek to divide our group of uploaders into something seen as 'selfish' or 'obsessed' for keeping an eye on their own radar arent doing us any favours despite the points I made in my previous post. We can take this opportunity to use this information to improve our setup if we're able. I'm in something of a hollow and have many obstructions surrounding me but that doesnt mean I should look down on those who may simply have a great setup or location or on the other hand that I shouldnt seek to improve my setup. It's also easy to overlook (or forget) the changes occuring on the map, forum etc and even information that has been there for some time (some of which isnt up to date but that can be a very difficult thing to keep up with having such a rapidly changing environment). We uploaders are after all volunteers with other things going on in our lives whilst we give to this great hobby.

I dont use those add-on or extra programs mentioned previously on this thread although they may be excellent programs. This is due principally to keeping things as simple as I possibly can (the 'KISS' principle). I do use a nifty little program though called 'sbsplotter' (for basestation only as far as I know) to get an idea both in real time and over the period of a day of my radar's performance (range wise) and is available at the following site;

http://jetvision.de/sbs1.shtml

As for the main subject of this thread I think any 'preference' being given to a particular group of radars to display on the map may be something of a furphy. From what I understand from what's been said elsewhere it's to some degree down to luck as to which radar has an aircraft at a given point in time more than anything else. It would seem however that some units are slightly faster than others on the upload but so are some computers. My laptop would rank somewhere behind the tortoise if compared with the tortoise and the hare.

If anyone wants to see an example of a good attitude towards this hobby have a read of the following;

http://forum.flightradar24.com/threads/499-New-Zealand-Radar?p=35736#post35736

..as well as some of those expressed by John (paradiselost) on this thread

It can indeed be all good fun, well said 41south.

Regards,
Gregg

[Kemistry]

I’d like to try to answer the question "about the point" of seeing our radar on FR24 when you can already check this data on your own viewing software. Hopefully without offending anyone and being shot down in flames.
I think you will all agree that FR24 has local or system-wide data quality problems every so often. These come from a variety of reasons that we rarely get much information about. Usually we are just told that “it’s all fixed now”. Maybe we are getting to the stage that these problems are less frequent because either the overall feeder system is reasonably debugged or we just have more feeders that improves the quality by allowing dud data to be identified and scrapped. I do hope that FR24 do not have a “Gen3” version of their feeder system in the pipeline that we will have to then debug
I check my data on FR24 because I want to make sure that the FR24 system is correctly processing my known accurate data and it gives our “customers” the best experience and confidence in the product. This might sound a little smug but I take this hobby very seriously and I check my data nearly every day by sighting aircraft to confirm the accuracy of my data. When a new feeder pops up on FR24 screens in my area, I confirm that they are sending valid data by comparison to mine. I have seen some weird situations over my time as a feeder (eg planes jumping back and forward and spikes in the AC route all caused by dud data - that is sometimes my fault).
I think we should be examining the potential threats to the quality of the data. I worry about inaccurate time stamping by individual feeders and the potential for incorrect positional data to be sent by hardware problems or by deliberate sabotage. It’s not that hard for any smart-kid with a $20 dongle to be feeding corrupted data into FR24. I understand that FR24 supplied kit may lower risk for this happening but it is sad that these kit feeders may be not be as committed to overall data quality and its protection as dedicated hobby feeders – no offence intended to keen F-xxxx’ers.
Longer term, FR24 needs a vigilant and geographically dispersed group of enthusiasts committed to data quality and protection. My name is up for one of those in my area. Don’t anyone start feeding dud data anywhere near YBBN! I think being able to view the radar code on FR24 is an important diagnostic tool for this service. I can see my data and have a benchmark to determine if a particular error is within FR24 systems or just another dud feeder. Hide my radar code and I am blind and cannot offer LOCAL validation of end-to-end data quality. Something for FR24 team to consider …

[fungus]

Kemistry,
Just a quicky this time by virtue of the hour here. I cant help but agree with your sentiments and might add that those placed in the 'obsessed group' may in fact be observing not only their own radars for the reasons you've outlined but others in the region and all for the betterment of FR24, not just for themselves and as such some may have been unfairly 'targeted.' (for want of a better word).
I've resisted the usual method of responding to your post with quote only for the reason of saving duplicating the very well worded post.

On an issue very much related to what you've discussed I've noticed from observing aircraft to the far north of Sydney that there is something of a slight gap on many occasions between our radars (including Williamtown) and yours displaying a smooth transition between the 'paints' on the map. Noticing this and wishing to improve our setups (and range) may overcome issues such as these and ultimately lead to improving the overall quality of the map and the experience of the users. I cant imagine anyone arguing against this one.

Thanks and Regards,
Gregg (T-YSSY4)

[All-Seeing-Pie]

Thank you for opening this thread eddm_muc. In contradiction to most users here I do agree with you points.

As the one running T-EDDM1 I am seeing my radar degraded to only feed EDDM's ground traffic. Basically this is fine, but does raise questions as to whether my radar is still needed in long term.

I have been feeding data into FR24 24/7 for about 3 years (back then I was the 1st or 2nd feeder in this area) and happily spent quite some money for the equipment, including a good roof antenna and a dedicated PC. Running this setup does cost a bit of money and a little time, albeit not very much but enough to ask the question if there is still future need for ones radar.

It is not clear to me why someone around EEDM is given a free box while several radars with excellent coverage are already there. There are many airports which have got low coverage and should be prioritized. Good example Belgrade airport (BEG, LYBE), approaching and ground traffic coverage is non existant.

It is a bit dissappointing see ones data being trivialised. One would assume that existing feeders in an area would be asked first if they wanted to upgrade their existing hardware to improve on the level of their data quality, prior to considering bringing in more feeders. I would have happily upgraded my box to whatever needed to improve on my data quality, but I was never asked.

[paradiselost]

Thank you for opening this thread eddm_muc. In contradiction to most users here I do agree with you points.

As the one running T-EDDM1 I am seeing my radar degraded to only feed EDDM's ground traffic. Basically this is fine, but does raise questions as to whether my radar is still needed in long term.

It is a bit disappointing see ones data being trivialised. One would assume that existing feeders in an area would be asked first if they wanted to upgrade their existing hardware to improve on the level of their data quality, prior to considering bringing in more feeders. I would have happily upgraded my box to whatever needed to improve on my data quality, but I was never asked.

Hey Guys, isn't it great being a small cog in a big sprocket????

This thread is a great conversation topic at the coffee shop instead of "Isn't the weather awful" or "My arthritis is acting up, is yours?".

Europe and the UK are concentrated and is home to FR24. It is survival of the fittest among the feeders. He who is in the best location. with the greatest range is gonna win out over the "boutique" hobbyists. End to end tracking leads to better User Experience than the technical switching from radar to radar.

Boutique hobbyists are never going to be able to compete with the newest and latest "black boxes" but isn't it fun trying and succeeding in "reinventing the wheel"?

Money is the salve that heals all wounds.

FR24 costs Thousands each month to pay the rent, server costs and meager salaries if any. The engine of our hobby has to be paid for continually month by month. When they run out of money this website and service goes black.

It used to appear to me FR24 is Eurocentric. It is true, Europe is the marketing area that has the incomes and means to buy stuff promoted by FR24. If FR24 can't generate funding, we have no hobby. America has the FAA coverage, a hard nut to crack.

My local area in the southern Philippines has several feeders, each contributing a part of the "Big Picture". FR24 investment in a new feeder in Manila with excellent coverage is appreciated especially since it provides with our small contribution end to end coverage. Investment will never be amortized from sales here....only Europe.

"Boutique" feeders you are needed, you will always fit in the "Big Picture". I feel your pain.

John

T-RPVD1

http://www.flightradar24.com/9.91,123.64/7

[North Borneo Radar]

Thank you for opening this thread eddm_muc. In contradiction to most users here I do agree with you points.

It is a bit dissappointing see ones data being trivialised. One would assume that existing feeders in an area would be asked first if they wanted to upgrade their existing hardware to improve on the level of their data quality, prior to considering bringing in more feeders. I would have happily upgraded my box to whatever needed to improve on my data quality, but I was never asked.

Just curious, did you apply for the free FR24 receiver when FR24 launched it?

[peterhr]

I do think there is a future for the "Boutique" feeders - it's just not a big one here in Europe.

Here it might be filling in low level holes in cover around airports or if you have a super antenna and can get signal from beyond the fringe at the ocean edges, but where you have four overlapping superfast FR24 boxes as are required for MLAT, you're really unlikely to be seen.

My tiny rig is still running, it contributes two minutes tracking of one plane of the 20 or so that take off every hour from the local airport.

Eventually I'd like to do a write up of how to put a whole station together at a really low cost that could be used as a basis school science or hobby project for someone somewhere remote where there is no or little cover. The Raspberry Pi & dongle based receiver is ideal for this since once set up it's so relatively inexpensive and very cheap to run. The present challenge is to make it so the dongle + pi can be mounted at the antenna, to receive power up the Ethernet cable (requiring no expensive co-ax ...a Cat5 cable is good for up to 100m for the signal, don't know about the volt drop though).

We do read here about FR24 giving away dongles
- I would like to see them making available an SD card image preloaded ready for a PI - that just requires a simple geographical registration or self registration like the present FR24 boxes (maybe it could be powered, watch the skies and learn where it is from the signals received by doing some sort of averaging of the plane positions seen for - say - 50 different aircraft prior to self registration, or just have a GPS puck in the kit if one can be found for under $10 or so).
- Maybe people here would be willing act as flying angels to sponsor the low cost kit for schools in remote world areas - we'd probably be looking at something like 70USD + the cost of the Ethernet cable (excluding taxes + carriage).
- Just throwing around ideas.

[Mike]

There are many airports which have got low coverage and should be prioritized. Good example Belgrade airport (BEG, LYBE), approaching and ground traffic coverage is non existant.

FYI, 3 receivers has been sent to BEG area and 2 are 100% offline and 1 is quite stable. We can't just continue sending receiver after receiver to a location when they are not being installed/used.

We are prioritizing good locations. We will not send 500€ kits that will give 50km coverage, but we try to send them to locations where we get 300km+ coverage. Increasing coverage is an ongoing process that will never be "ready". We are sending out about 10 receivers every week, and we try to spread them across the world. Recent weeks we have focused a bit on Europe to get MLAT up, but that does not mean that we can install 300-400 receivers on every airport in Europe during one month. Batch 2 of FR24 receiver will be ready within 10 days, and that will make it possible to increase number of shipments a bit.

We have been offering MLAT upgrade for current feeders, and I have only received 6 requests so far. The first 3 requests has been approved for upgrade. http://forum.flightradar24.com/threa...ll=1#post33400

[Mike]

We do read here about FR24 giving away dongles
- I would like to see them making available an SD card image preloaded ready for a PI - that just requires a simple geographical registration or self registration like the present FR24 boxes (maybe it could be powered, watch the skies and learn where it is from the signals received by doing some sort of averaging of the plane positions seen for - say - 50 different aircraft prior to self registration, or just have a GPS puck in the kit if one can be found for under $10 or so).
- Maybe people here would be willing act as flying angels to sponsor the low cost kit for schools in remote world areas - we'd probably be looking at something like 70USD + the cost of the Ethernet cable (excluding taxes + carriage).
- Just throwing around ideas.

I don't think we will be sending out so many more dongles. They sure are cheap but the process of installing them is quite hard and I would guess that 80-90% of the dongles we have sent out are offline today. But we are working on another low cost alternative. Of course we have been looking on the Rasberry pi option, but there are some reasons why we are not sure about this option. I don't really remember everything now, but I think that SD-card stability, missing WiFi and overall stability are some of the issues we had. I can't say so much right now, but there will be a low cost receiver for less than 100€ in production cost (without GPS/MLAT posibility).

[eddm_muc]

We have been offering MLAT upgrade for current feeders, and I have only received 6 requests so far. The first 3 requests has been approved for upgrade. http://forum.flightradar24.com/threa...ll=1#post33400

@Mike
no offense please
I think it would have been nicer if FR24 would have contacted the long term feeders who have been part of the success story of FR24 if they wanna have a free upgrade, if it was technically of use for you, rather than offering that these feeder have to look into the board and find this offer somewhere in this "jungle". you have all their contact details and thus it would have been easier to fire out an email.


@All-Seeing-Pie
I have told Mike that I wanna get in touch with you offline, as there is no PM function here. he should have given you my email..
don't wanna post it here. so Mike please give it to him again. thanks