Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Getting the Cart Before the Horse Next-Gen vs What Is

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Getting the Cart Before the Horse Next-Gen vs What Is

    Let's analyze Next-Gen:

    FR24/Gunter has improved the miniADSb and FPGA Based Decoder, interfaced it with GPS for accurate location and timing with a POE port bypassing the need for a computer. MLAT uses several of these tracking the same UFO target and the FR24 server does the number crunching to triangulate the target which is then displayed on their map. Identification is from the transmitted ICAO24 information. Routing is probably unknown. Ownership is probably unknown. Speed, direction of travel is determined by successive plots. Things that do go wrong, include internet latency.

    PlanPlotter on the otherhand accepts MLAT information from anyone that opts-in regardless of the hardware and accepts or rejects packets that don't meet the servers criteria for extracting and calculating MLAT. Packet timing and network latency are factors in accepting or disregarding packets. Timing by client computer NTP correction eliminates that factor with only leaving decoding errors and network latency issues.

    MLAT is in the "Wild Wild West" stage where there are not any standards.

    FR24/Gunter are to be commended for their excellent hardware work on improving what is. They're efforts in designing, building and distributing superior equipment and implementation has been risky and we thank them.

    Where do we Go from Here?

    Feeders are a disparate group from all walks of life, of Means and No Means that live and die in all corners of the earth. Life or death of our hobby is in the hands of our governments. Until ADS-b is universal for both international and domestic aircraft, we will have to rely on MLAT schemes to identify UFOs. Pilots must be mandated to fully use the ADS-b capabilities of their aircraft in their pre-flight procedure.

    The using ADS-b for short flights will be a pain in the backside for general aviation and pilots of low passenger puddle jumpers but the UP side of safety is worth it. We have to get this message to our boards and regulators.

    Europe and the USA have the highest cost manufacturing in the world. China, Vietnam, Indonesia have the lowest costs. FR24/Gunter need to examine licensing their technology to bring down the costs that those of limited means can afford. Foxconn and Iphone are examples. All successful global European and U.S. companies are realizing great success shifting manufacturing from high cost to low cost countries. Nationalistic pride shouldn't get in the way of succeeding.

    Rather than concentrating on a high cost limited box solution, add-on FPGA decoders need to be developed for what is, obsolete ADS-b receivers and dongles. The upside for FR24 is that Feeder quality would increase exponentially. LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION and antenna orientation are the only things that will allow ground to ground take-off and landing at airports. FR24 site selection can do that.

    From my vantage point that is just my opinion.

    John

    T-RPVD1

    http://fr24.com/9.06,122.42/7

  • #2
    Very good write up.
    Wonder how many more ADS-B hobby type receivers will be available around year 2016-2020.
    Brian

    www.RadarSpotters.eu
    [ Feeder Station List ][ Map ][ Latest Feeders Rank Stats ][ ImRadarFeeder.com Radar Feeders WorldWide Map ][ VRS Feeder List ] (NEW)

    Comment


    • #3
      It is just the same in other aspects of life, not just ads-b receivers. Take photography for example, there are cheaper cameras to the more expensive DSLRs. It is up to you what you want to get. People who really are into it will always find ways to get better kits/equipments as there is the desire.

      I am no entrepreneur or economist, but I would think the demand for ads-b receiver is small, or rather only a small group of specialist hobbyist. Take new t-xxxx feeders for example, there isn't many that come online. Even in china that has a big population there is only about 15+ feeders (including F-xxxx feeders). Yes it would make sense to move production say clothes/electronic consumables over the Far East to keep your overhead low, but for ads-b receivers, I personally don't think the demand will be that high. If it really is, prices of the USB dongles surely will be going up. Demand vs supply, you know. You could argue the other way round if the receiver is cheap then more will try this hobby. But personally I find the number of fans of cars/motorbikes outnumber the number of fans of airplanes!

      As for MLAT, I think it is a great addition to have for FR24 and i am eager to see how it performs and expand.
      Last edited by North Borneo Radar; 2013-08-26, 05:27.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by North Borneo Radar View Post
        It is just the same in other aspects of life, not just ads-b receivers. Take photography for example, there are cheaper cameras to the more expensive DSLRs. It is up to you what you want to get. People who really are into it will always find ways to get better kits/equipments as there is the desire.

        I am no entrepreneur or economist, but I would think the demand for ads-b receiver is small, or rather only a small group of specialist hobbyist. Take new t-xxxx feeders for example, there isn't many that come online. Even in china that has a big population there is only about 15+ feeders (including F-xxxx feeders). Yes it would make sense to move production say clothes/electronic consumables over the Far East to keep your overhead low, but for ads-b receivers, I personally don't think the demand will be that high. If it really is, prices of the USB dongles surely will be going up. Demand vs supply, you know. You could argue the other way round if the receiver is cheap then more will try this hobby. But personally I find the number of fans of cars/motorbikes outnumber the number of fans of airplanes!

        As for MLAT, I think it is a great addition to have for FR24 and i am eager to see how it performs and expand.
        Very well said. I have lots of interests in life but unlike all the others I can honestly say that I do not personally know another planespotter. If I lived in a large city with a big airport it would perhaps be different but you're right - spotters are not hanging around every street corner. BTW You do a great job posting the new feeders in Asia.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by North Borneo Radar View Post
          It is just the same in other aspects of life, not just ads-b receivers. Take photography for example, there are cheaper cameras to the more expensive DSLRs. It is up to you what you want to get. People who really are into it will always find ways to get better kits/equipments as there is the desire.
          If you will check the vendors inventories of high priced Beast and Mouse receivers, their inventories are still about what they were when the kits or receivers were introduced.

          Some of us are risk takers, I would in an abstract way compare FR24s endeavors to push the envelope with MLAT and receivers with FPGA Based Decoders, GPS and POE with how Samsung broke out of the pack with flagship phones and then filling in the line with affordable phones with some of the new technology. We need to help and support FR24 in this endeavor to the extent our means will permit and hope that somehow the technology we now lack will filter down so those of us with limited means to an affordable level. Free equipment can't continue indefinitely.

          China for example has developed some competitive fast microprocessors that rival other better known brands. China is also selling affordable phones that permit users to watch tv with an extendable antenna. Isn't that why the dongles were perfected, to watch tv? Phones with Mode S receivers built in are not far off. One could point the antenna at an aircraft and get the information without the internet.

          CNN got into airports and hotels by a concentrated effort over the years, this is where FR24 needs to be to show the brand. We need to be FR24 Evangelists in our own areas to the extent we can.

          Originally posted by North Borneo Radar View Post
          Take new t-xxxx feeders for example, there isn't many that come online. Even in china that has a big population there is only about 15+ feeders (including F-xxxx feeders)
          Most of the world doesn't speak and write English and even where I am, there is a reluctance to communicate in a foreign language because of embarrassment of making a mistake. Forums like this probably has more lurkers than participants and even though we may not see them, they are here. We could all learn from them. This forum has some that communicate in the language they are comfortable with. If you would like to start a forum in your language email support@fr24.com and make arrangements.

          Everyone wants a FREE BOX but unfortunately according to Mike, some have went walk-about and for some reason have not called home. In the selection process there has to be some accountability by the applicants so that FR24 can determine with some measure of success, intent and stability.

          John

          T-RPVD1

          http://fr24.com/9.31,123.64/7

          Comment


          • #6
            Actually, I don't want a free box - but I do want to contribute. I do wonder if there are - in a way - two extremes at the moment.
            * the people who have no technical ability and can only contribute if they get a box with everything they need to run a radar by just connecting the supplied pieces (free, paid, or part contributed),

            or

            * Those with a great deal of technical ability - the radio amateurs - who understand what each box does, how to connect it up, how to setup the software and most importantly - they know where to look if something goes wrong.

            Somewhere in between there are people who can take standard pieces (bought out of their own pockets) plus a really simple software installation and produce a working radar. Once they have that we can grow them if they want to go further.

            For own language forums - it would be good to translate all posts to English (as a common language - use google/bing translate) and have a bi-lingual moderator in the forum (English + Forum language) ... mainly to supervise the translation quality, not to censor.

            I wonder about internet penetration in central and western China, Africa and other third world countries, and so on - since a good FR24 feed needs an always on connection.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by airnrail View Post
              BTW You do a great job posting the new feeders in Asia.
              Cheers for that airnrail. I do enjoy spotting new feeders when I got the time. just to escape from reality a bit.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by paradiselost View Post
                Let's analyze Next-Gen:
                All successful global European and U.S. companies are realizing great success shifting manufacturing from high cost to low cost countries. Nationalistic pride shouldn't get in the way of succeeding.
                Based on experience, I disagree with this statement.

                Certainly the headline cost can look attractive; cut manufacturing costs by 60%? Great!

                And then you start to deal with the problems of ensuring adequate QA from 5000 miles away, so you have to contract a QA provider to supervise production.

                Sometimes incorrect / out of spec parts are substituted; not always economical to return to factory to replace, so eat the costs of those discards.

                Shipping costs in time and money. Shipping damage. Theft, loss on quayside.

                Intangibles: lag time of modifying designs to account for real-world usage issues, loss of agility in sizing production.

                It's not about nationalism, it's about ensuring quality and control. Some successful companies are on-shoring production again.

                Edit: on the Foxconn / iPhone example, Apple have said that manufacturing the iPhone in the USA would add about $80 to the price. Cost of manuafcture is not the issue for them, it's the costs of setting-up the infrastructure and training the staff. If a company already has those assets then off-shoring has little merit.
                Last edited by mimku; 2013-08-26, 17:34.

                Comment

                Working...
                X