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  • Callsigns incorrectly shortened

    It seems FR24 tries to be smart and shortens ICAO callsigns with leading zero(s).
    E.g. CFG025 (from raw data) becomes CFG25 (on FR24). DLH032 becomes DLH32.
    This is definitely wrong. ICAO callsigns must not be abbreviated.
    (IATA callsigns used for ACARS are a different species and these be shortened.)

  • #2
    Used to see this on faa data ... perhaps it's done for matching to eliminate duplicates where both orange and yellow planes were shown previously and now just yellow appears.

    Sent from my GT-P5110 using Tapatalk 2

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    • #3
      Originally posted by junglejet View Post
      It seems FR24 tries to be smart and shortens ICAO callsigns with leading zero(s).
      E.g. CFG025 (from raw data) becomes CFG25 (on FR24). DLH032 becomes DLH32.
      This is definitely wrong. ICAO callsigns must not be abbreviated.
      (IATA callsigns used for ACARS are a different species and these be shortened.)
      The reason you don't see Zero's immediately after the first part of Callsign's / Flight Numbers is because it causes problems with the Database, you will only see a Zero with Alternate Callsigns. (So you will see Flight Number: LH32 / Callsign: DLH32 / Alternate Callsign: DLH032.)
      AMS Daily Fight Information: http://schiphol.dutchplanespotters.nl/

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      • #4
        Originally posted by junglejet View Post
        It seems FR24 tries to be smart and shortens ICAO callsigns with leading zero(s).
        E.g. CFG025 (from raw data) becomes CFG25 (on FR24). DLH032 becomes DLH32.
        This is definitely wrong. ICAO callsigns must not be abbreviated.
        (IATA callsigns used for ACARS are a different species and these be shortened.)
        As an uploader I use a number of sites to log callsigns/flight numbers and other flight details. They all do the same. It's not a case of FR24 'trying to be smart.' I dont know who created the law that they musn't be shortened, perhaps you need to discuss the issue with them. British Airways just for an example use BA15 and BA16 for their LHR/SYD and SYD/LHR flights which are programmed by the pilots directly into the aircraft's own FMC's. Many Qantas, Jetstar and Virgin Australia flights do exactly the same and as such FR24 has no control over those whatsoever.

        As yet I havent found any specific ruling on the ICAO site in relation to this 'issue' but in this example they list a number of examples of callsigns with the following:

        2.8 The amendment indicates the following for airlines would typically apply:
        “the ICAO designator for the aircraft operating agency followed by the flight
        identification (e.g.KLM511, NGA213, JTR25)”
        reflecting the guidance in Annex 10, Volume II, Chapter 5


        from the following document;

        http://www.icao.int/APAC/Meetings/20...minar/WP13.pdf

        Note the callsign 'JTR25' not 'JTR025'

        This from the same document;

        2.9 With the first 3 alphanumerics assigned by ICAO to designate the airline operating
        agency, airlines typically use three numerical characters for flight identification on
        scheduled flights. The last character is sometimes used for other purposes (e.g.
        delayed flights) although 4 numerical characters are sometimes used as well,
        typically for non-scheduled flight


        This seems to indicate that the 3 letter prefix is a requirement assigned by ICAO but the numerals following are for airline 'typical use' only and not part of any requirement as to how those 3 characters are used.

        Regards,
        Gregg
        Last edited by fungus; 2013-08-04, 23:30.
        YSSY2/T-YSSY4 [SBS-1 Basestation w/- SSE-1090 SJ Mk2 Antenna (Thanks Delcomp) ] [Uniden UBCD996T w/- 16 element Wideband Discone VHF/UHF Antenna, and tuned 108MHz-137MHz Airband Antenna] [Trialing a home-brew 1090MHz collinear antenna]

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        • #5
          FR24 shortens the E6 aircraft flight ids.

          Mode-S Flight ID: GOTO FMS
          FR24 shortened it to GOTO
          FR24 shortened it to this now: GOTOFMS

          It should be GOTO FMS like on all the other sites & Mode-S receivers decoding.

          http://www.flightradar24.com/data/airplanes/162784
          http://www.flightradar24.com/data/airplanes/163920
          http://www.flightradar24.com/data/airplanes/164386
          http://www.flightradar24.com/data/airplanes/164406
          http://www.flightradar24.com/data/airplanes/164404

          See this thread too!
          http://forum.flightradar24.com/threa...TO-vs-GOTO-FMS
          Brian

          www.RadarSpotters.eu
          [ Feeder Station List ][ Map ][ Latest Feeders Rank Stats ][ ImRadarFeeder.com Radar Feeders WorldWide Map ][ VRS Feeder List ] (NEW)

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          • #6
            Brian,

            If you check the pdf file in my post above from ICAO it explains that the callsign is now to be a maximum of 7 characters. 'GOTO FMS' is eight characters (due to the gap). 'GOTOFMS' is seven characters. I cant, however, be sure that this satisfactorily explains what you've noticed.

            Regards,
            Gregg
            Last edited by fungus; 2013-08-05, 04:35.
            YSSY2/T-YSSY4 [SBS-1 Basestation w/- SSE-1090 SJ Mk2 Antenna (Thanks Delcomp) ] [Uniden UBCD996T w/- 16 element Wideband Discone VHF/UHF Antenna, and tuned 108MHz-137MHz Airband Antenna] [Trialing a home-brew 1090MHz collinear antenna]

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            • #7
              Someone should ask why the E6 aircraft sending it out as "GOTO FMS" and change it to GOTOFMS to match the ICAO thingy!

              FR24 should only be displaying what the aircraft is sending out. It's sending out GOTO FMS.
              Because when users copy and paste the info from the Mode-S Receiver/software screen, and do the search (GOTO FMS) for it on sites like FR24. It won't find it.

              If you go back when FR24 showed it as "GOTO FMS".
              I could have the link 'bookmark' or posted the link on another thread for people to use to find the flight easier.
              but since it was changed and no one from FR24 talked about the changed or why it was changed. The bookmark didn't work any longer and the FR24 link for GOTO FMS doesn't work any longer. It somewhat became 404 error kind of thing.
              So the direct link had to be updated to GOTO for few months and now the link has to be updated to GOTOFMS again.

              If FR24 Going to make changes, They should post on why the changes are being made. So the users of the FR24 website could update the links when needed.

              We Need To Communicate Better with the FR24 Users/Feeders,Team,etc.
              Brian

              www.RadarSpotters.eu
              [ Feeder Station List ][ Map ][ Latest Feeders Rank Stats ][ ImRadarFeeder.com Radar Feeders WorldWide Map ][ VRS Feeder List ] (NEW)

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              • #8
                Agreed Brian, we need a 'chief' to talk to us 'indians'

                Gregg
                YSSY2/T-YSSY4 [SBS-1 Basestation w/- SSE-1090 SJ Mk2 Antenna (Thanks Delcomp) ] [Uniden UBCD996T w/- 16 element Wideband Discone VHF/UHF Antenna, and tuned 108MHz-137MHz Airband Antenna] [Trialing a home-brew 1090MHz collinear antenna]

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by junglejet View Post
                  It seems FR24 tries to be smart and shortens ICAO callsigns with leading zero(s).
                  E.g. CFG025 (from raw data) becomes CFG25 (on FR24). DLH032 becomes DLH32.
                  This is definitely wrong. ICAO callsigns must not be abbreviated.
                  (IATA callsigns used for ACARS are a different species and these be shortened.)
                  Pilots use different callsigns every day. I have seen callsign SAS1, SAS01, SAS001 and SAS0001, all used on the same flight within about one week. Sometimes they also use SK1 or SK01 or SK001 to make it even more "funny". So there is a big difference what should be used and what is used in reality. If we compare it to schedule data we get SK1, SK01, SK001, SK0001 depending on source. It's just a big mess of zeros. On top of that we have FAA data that can report SAS0945 for flight SAS945 or SAS945 for flight SAS0945.

                  Matching ADSB flight callsign VIR3N with FAA callsign VIR003 with schedule data VS03 is not so simple. And which one is correct? To make life easier for us, our database, route matching and users, all zeros should always be removed.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Mike View Post
                    Pilots use different callsigns every day. So there is a big difference what should be used and what is used in reality. It's just a big mess of zeros.
                    And which one is correct? To make life easier for us, our database, route matching and users, all zeros should always be removed.
                    But if you look again GOTOFMS (GOTO FMS) doesn't have any zeros. GOTO FMS would be more correct. Plus it doesn't show up on the FAA data and you don't have to match it up with any routes!
                    Brian

                    www.RadarSpotters.eu
                    [ Feeder Station List ][ Map ][ Latest Feeders Rank Stats ][ ImRadarFeeder.com Radar Feeders WorldWide Map ][ VRS Feeder List ] (NEW)

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                    • #11
                      Mike,

                      appreciate your answer, but ICAO callsigns must be programmed exactly as stated in the flight plan item 7 (the ICAO flight plan, not the airline timetable, which represents the IATA number).
                      This is the only correct rule (in Europe), because otherwise there is no match between the data tracking system in the ATC centers and the Mode-S id data. I am sure other ATC areas with Mode-S id data usage (e.g. Australia) have enforced the same rule.

                      Eurocontrol has chased mis-dialers for some time and the problem has gone away in its area by almost 100%. If SAS does not enforce this policy it shows that they have a slacky flight ops department. I can witness that I very very rarely see numbers being misdialed. DLH never leaves out a leading zero (or two).

                      http://www.eurocontrol.int/msa/galle...et_V%201.3.pdf

                      NOTE: What is entered at item 7 must match exactly what is entered in the Mode S Aircraft
                      Identification (also known as Flight ID) input device in the cockpit. If it does not, then the aircraft
                      will not be correlated with its stored flight plan and delays will ensue.
                      There must be no spaces ahead of or between the designator letters and flight number, nor
                      any additional/superfluous zeros. If the input device requires all character boxes to be
                      filled, enter spaces after the flight number.


                      I would appreciate if FR24 would show callsigns exactly as transmitted on the map, shortening and matching with similar callsigns can be done in the background. Likewise no leading zero should be added to BAW25 (which is just circling to burn fuel over the channel). If ALTERNATE CALLSIGN can be selected for the maps, that would help, too.

                      GOTO FMS is a popular (unauthorized) one that should be displayed imho, too. There are other's that we woul dlove to retain unchanged (though they become less).

                      My best regards
                      Andy
                      Last edited by junglejet; 2013-08-05, 19:34. Reason: Greetings addes

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                      • #12
                        SAS was just an example, the same applies to most airlines. For example about 50% of Qatar 2-number flights have QTRxx callsign and 50% have QTR0xx callsign. It also also VERY common that pilot forgets to change callsign on return flight, and returns with same callsign as outbound. Other errors like GOL instead of GLO, 315 instead of AWE315, RIR instead or RYR or EDDM instead of AFL2594 are also seen daily. So theory is FAR away from reality or 100%. No one would be more happy than me, if airlines/pilots always used correct and uniform values. As long as data quality is so poor as it is today, we will need to convert all data to uniform values. I'm sorry to make you disappointed, but we have no plans of changing how it works today. Making it in background/backend and not at frontend makes many features at the frontend not working like linking, search or alerts.

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                        • #13
                          Likewise NZ co operated flights, they certainly don't broadcast the likes of NZ5004. They tx NZ4

                          ZK-MVA AT76 NZM2 11275 ft C82009
                          ^^ This is raw from my receiver.

                          This is the actual 'approved' flight number etc. http://info.flightmapper.net/flight/...ealand_NZ_5002
                          Posts not to be taken as official support representation - Just a helpful uploader who tinkers

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Mike View Post
                            Other errors like GOL instead of GLO.
                            This is a one time typo, you will not be able to recode it to a valid flight number, because GLO could be a valid ICAO code.

                            , 315 instead of AWE315
                            Standard practice in the US, because correct input is not mandated yet, and all do what they want. You won't be able to recode these to something that makes sense.

                            , RIR instead or RYR
                            This is a one time typo, you will not be able to recode it, because RIR could be a valid ICAO code.

                            or EDDM instead of AFL2594
                            Entry error, entered destination into wrong FMS field, you won't be able to recode to a valid flight number.

                            These are all known cases, but compared to the huge number of flights they are minimal, at least where I live.

                            I was talking about correctly entered callsigns with leading zeros, that are shortened by FR24 because there is a remote chance that the same callsign may be mistyped by somebody someday. This makes 99.99% of callsigns with leading zeros incorrect on the map display and makes them different from the RTF callsign. This is what I do not like, but I will leave it here.

                            Andy

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by junglejet View Post
                              This is a one time typo, you will not be able to recode it to a valid flight number, because GLO could be a valid ICAO code.
                              This is not what I call "one time typo". Currently 21 aircraft in Brazilian airspace with incorrect callsign.



                              Originally posted by junglejet View Post
                              These are all known cases, but compared to the huge number of flights they are minimal, at least where I live.

                              I was talking about correctly entered callsigns with leading zeros, that are shortened by FR24 because there is a remote chance that the same callsign may be mistyped by somebody someday. This makes 99.99% of callsigns with leading zeros incorrect on the map display and makes them different from the RTF callsign. This is what I do not like, but I will leave it here.

                              Andy
                              This are all just examples that errors are very common on all levels and that proves that rules and reality are 2 completely different things. To have a good and stable database we need commonality and that is why we will remove zeros, and convert GOL to GLO as well.

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