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  • #61
    I fully understand why FR24 wants to keep their MLAT project under strict control regarding hardware and software specs etc. However once the inhouse solution is up and running they should consider a solution using the equipment already out there as F-receivers. Maybe in some form of 'certified configuration' with verified perform.

    BTW, There is actually another thread about MLAT so maybe we should continue the discussion there.

    Comment


    • #62
      I never said that the 100$ receiver will include a GPS.



      I can't say so much right now, but there will be a low cost receiver for less than 100€ in production cost (without GPS/MLAT posibility).
      I'm not sure were you are trying to reach with the price/hardware discussion but after been in contact with almost 1000 potential feeders, and have installed about 300 receivers, I think we have quite knowledge what potential hosts are looking for and what we can offer.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Mike View Post
        I never said that the 100$ receiver will include a GPS.





        I'm not sure were you are trying to reach with the price/hardware discussion but after been in contact with almost 1000 potential feeders, and have installed about 300 receivers, I think we have quite knowledge what potential hosts are looking for and what we can offer.
        Just illustrating that the $100 price is achievable now - we have no doubt that the FR24 $100 solution will be an excellent design and reliable performer.

        Comment


        • #64
          I think I need to straighten out the question marks that has been posted in this thread.

          Flightradar24 is NOT a hardware company
          Our goal has never been to build or sell hardware. But about 18 months ago we had several problems.
          * ADS-B hardware was very expensive. The cost of the SBS-3 was about 550€.
          * It was hard to get good ADS-B hardware. For example I was holding the "puck" in my hand in December 2012 (9 months ago), and it's still not available on the market.
          * An external computer was always needed to install an ADS-B-receiver. Increased the price by another 200-400€ and stability was not so good.
          That is why we were forced to develop the FR24box together with a partner. Apart from the hardware we have invested lots of time in software development and extensive testing before we started first shipments earlier this year. As there has been a big demand for a MLAT-receiver on the market we first decided to sell the receiver. But the initial plan to sell this receiver has been postponed mainly because of software issues. The FR24boxes that we lend to feeders are equipped with FR24 software that can be remotely controlled and updated from FR24 servers. This software can't be used for the boxes we sell as if you buy the box the idea is that you own it and do what you want with the box, and decide yourself what software you want to use and if you want to use it privately or to feed FR24.

          Data quality
          Data quality is very important for us, and our users. During the years that we have been running FR24 we have noticed that data errors are more or less common. The most common problems are faulty aircraft positions and delayed data. Some hardware or software or hardware/software combinations keeps uploading 1-5-10-15 minutes and sometimes even more delayed data, from time to time. As it is not our hardware and software it's very hard for us the find and solve the problem. Every time this happens we need to block and contact the feeder manually and ask him/her for a fix. This is very time consuming and creates inconvenience for us, feeders and users. That is why we prefer to run our own hardware/software that has been extensively tested to work stable without errors and were we have full control over the whole chain so in the unlikely situation that a problem occurs, we can solve it remotely and directly. Data errors are today much less common compared to 3-6 months ago, but still I see data errors almost daily.

          100$ receiver
          We can't afford to send a 500$ kit to every location in the world and we can't afford to setup MLAT in every location in the world, for example a small island, a remote location, an eighth receiver in London or a location where ADS-B is mandatory. There are also occasions were we just want to check if a location is suitable for doing a installation. That is why we are working on the "100$" receiver. The fast och exciting hardware development were Raspberry Pi, TV-USB-dongles, Android-USB-sticks are some of the parts that has influenced us and made this project possible. This receiver will just like the FR24box be extensively tested before release and it will be controlled from our servers. As I wrote, we are not a hardware company so we have not even talked about if we want to sell this product, although we think it's a quite exciting project. If we decide to sell it we will need to make a special software and we will need to support it, something that is not our focus or main business. If you are looking for an ADS-B receiver for private use, please do not expect to be able to buy our 100$ receiver, but we will probably ship it for free to feeders in bigger volumes compared to the current FR24box.

          MLAT
          I know that Planeplotter has been running MLAT for some time now. If I understand it correctly they are running it with different receivers (except the radarbox) and many different solutions for the time synchronization, and in most cases without using a GPS I think. I have actually not seen the result but from what I have heard they achieve varying results and data quality. I think it's quite amazing that they have managed to get it working with such varied hardware. As MLAT calculations are based on the speed of light every little delay of even milliseconds can make very big difference. That is why FR24 has decided to only use our own MLAT hardware with a GPS connected directly to the hardware/computer, with the same synchronization/delay on all units. That is what makes it possible to keep a very good quality of our MLAT data, with a accuracy of about 5-20 meters in most cases. A USB connected GPS to a computer would generate "enormous" delays compared to what we have today.

          Future
          As data quality is very important for us, the only way for us to have full control over data quality is receivers that are controlled from our servers, and this is what we will focus on in the future. Apart from data quality, coverage is of course very important for us and we really appreciate all feeders uploading data. Giving feeders a free premium account is our way of saying "thank you" and we will continue improving the premium service with more features. Hopefully most the feeders that want to get FR24-hardware for feeding data, will be able to get it sooner or later. Once we have finished the public/open software for the FR24box we will sell some units, but once again, we are not a hardware company and we don't want to spend time on giving support to users, that could be done automatically if we own/control the receiver. If you want a free FR24box make sure to find a good location and apply on http://www.flightradar24.com/free-ads-b-equipment

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Mike View Post
            The FR24boxes that we lend to feeders are equipped with FR24 software that can be remotely controlled and updated from FR24 servers. This software can't be used for the boxes we sell as if you buy the box the idea is that you own it and do what you want with the box, and decide yourself what software you want to use and if you want to use it privately or to feed FR24.

            How about selling the box(s) and still let FR24 control the receiver. (Have both options available)
            So the owner(s) of the box(s) only has to deal with supplying power & internet connection & Antenna to it. The owner wouldn't have to deal with anything else!!!
            Some owner(s) doesn't want to baby sit the receiver 24/7 or keep track of it 24/7.
            If the owner decides to change the setup down the road. Have it so different firmware/software can be uploaded to the 'box'.

            P.S Nice write up in the above post Mike.
            Last edited by SoCalBrian; 2013-08-13, 22:48.
            Brian

            www.RadarSpotters.eu
            [ Feeder Station List ][ Map ][ Latest Feeders Rank Stats ][ ImRadarFeeder.com Radar Feeders WorldWide Map ][ VRS Feeder List ] (NEW)

            Comment


            • #66
              I agree with SoCalBrian on considering selling the receiver and FR24 still retaining control (and on the excellent post by Mike).

              I have a less then excellent location for a receiver due to trees on neighbouring properties - so could only achieve a 270 degree clear sky view, If for other purposes my geographical location was one where you might want a receiver - could you consider supplying it at 3/4 cost since it only has 3/4 view (something to think about later, maybe).

              Since the quality of the data is important, and that people want to help - for me it's payback for the ability to watch the aeroplanes - but make it that FR24 can get the good quality data for just a software cost.

              Lets make it possible for FR24 to have standardised receivers at no hardware or shipping cost.

              This would require
              A system with REQUIRED hardware - FR24 supply a list of the compatible building blocks (Single board computer options, tuner options, wifi options)

              FR24 supply a software image to run on the REQUIRED hardware and a deployment method for the image.

              FR24 would have a mail list to notify people of software updates and would have the ultimate sanction of being able to ignore data collected from un-updated systems (maybe beyond 3 versions old or with known bugs).
              FR24 would lock down the firewall on these boxes so they can only talk to the local network and FR24 approved servers (to stop them being exploited by hackers etc)
              FR24 would control if the software will run (sorry, your equipment is not compatible with this software - cut down support calls)

              The software just needs a couple of web interfaces for local use:
              * for configuration (location, radar ID),
              * a dump1090 map type interface to show the receiver is working (map is nice) ... what is being recieved
              * something like the FR24 feeder window that shows that the box is talking to the FR24 servers ... what is being passed up the line
              any other carrots that can be given to the users.

              I would like it to run on the PI + RTL820 ... a very common combination, never mind the SD card and slot issues ... if it fails it's up to the user to replace whatever is wrong. Hardware issues like this could be fielded to members in the forum space.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Mike View Post
                I think I need to straighten out the question marks that has been posted in this thread.

                Flightradar24 is NOT a hardware company
                Thank you for coming out a saying it.

                Data quality

                Real time stuff has some major problems with the condition of the network from Feeder to Server in Sweden.
                That is beyond our control as Feeders. We are the customer of our ISP but from there several networks are traversed and neither us nor you are the Customer until it gets to your host. Packet delays can only under best case scenario be minimal Time stamping goes to Purgatory if there is a network outage.

                MLAT triangulation requires several receivers tracking the same aircraft with overlapping coverage measuring the latency from the aircraft. The X marks the spot when the server computes the math and locates the target.

                If MLAT is to work lots of overlapping receiver coverages must be in place. Feeders that complain of seldom seeing their radar recognized on FR24 will increase. It's the nature of the beast.

                Asia and most of Africa will never become that concentrated so MLAT is not in their future.

                National radars are a western idea.....the undeveloped world only has us to light up the night. Mike thanks to you and FR24, your doing a heck of a job for us.

                MLAT
                I know that Planeplotter has been running MLAT for some time now. If I understand it correctly they are running it with different receivers (except the radarbox) and many different solutions for the time synchronization, and in most cases without using a GPS I think.
                Planeplotter is a whole different kettle of fish, they require a recurring fee paid subscription to feed their network and extra for MLAT. Thanks but no thanks from the volunteer group helping here.

                Everyone regardless of their means look at cost.

                Future
                I have yet to hear from your customers that received "Free Boxes" to see how they are doing and answer questions about the equipment. Perhaps we could have a thread hearing from them.

                Since the FR24 webpages are seldom updated is the following URL still valid? http://www.flightradar24.com/free-ads-b-equipment

                Obsolete seldom right information lives on perpetually once it is on a web page.

                Thanks again for the newsy well written posting Mike.

                John

                T-RPVD1

                The world’s most popular flight tracker. Track planes in real-time on our flight tracker map and get up-to-date flight status & airport information.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by paradiselost View Post
                  Planeplotter is a whole different kettle of fish, they require a recurring fee paid subscription to feed their network and extra for MLAT. Thanks but no thanks from the volunteer group helping here.
                  Planeplotter charges a one-off licence fee of Euros 25. Those who share data on a regular basis are not required to pay any recurring fees. Those who don't share data regularly pay an annual fee of Euros 10 to view Mlat plots.

                  If the PlanePlotter customer wants to see shared data and no Mlat, the one off fee applies. There is no recurring fee.
                  Mike


                  www.radarspotting.com

                  Radarspotting since 2005

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by peterhr View Post
                    I agree with SoCalBrian on considering selling the receiver and FR24 still retaining control (and on the excellent post by Mike).

                    I have a less then excellent location for a receiver due to trees on neighbouring properties - so could only achieve a 270 degree clear sky view, If for other purposes my geographical location was one where you might want a receiver - could you consider supplying it at 3/4 cost since it only has 3/4 view (something to think about later, maybe).

                    Since the quality of the data is important, and that people want to help - for me it's payback for the ability to watch the aeroplanes - but make it that FR24 can get the good quality data for just a software cost.

                    Lets make it possible for FR24 to have standardised receivers at no hardware or shipping cost.

                    This would require
                    A system with REQUIRED hardware - FR24 supply a list of the compatible building blocks (Single board computer options, tuner options, wifi options)

                    FR24 supply a software image to run on the REQUIRED hardware and a deployment method for the image.

                    FR24 would have a mail list to notify people of software updates and would have the ultimate sanction of being able to ignore data collected from un-updated systems (maybe beyond 3 versions old or with known bugs).
                    FR24 would lock down the firewall on these boxes so they can only talk to the local network and FR24 approved servers (to stop them being exploited by hackers etc)
                    FR24 would control if the software will run (sorry, your equipment is not compatible with this software - cut down support calls)

                    The software just needs a couple of web interfaces for local use:
                    * for configuration (location, radar ID),
                    * a dump1090 map type interface to show the receiver is working (map is nice) ... what is being recieved
                    * something like the FR24 feeder window that shows that the box is talking to the FR24 servers ... what is being passed up the line
                    any other carrots that can be given to the users.

                    I would like it to run on the PI + RTL820 ... a very common combination, never mind the SD card and slot issues ... if it fails it's up to the user to replace whatever is wrong. Hardware issues like this could be fielded to members in the forum space.
                    We will think about the selling of FR24 hardware with our software one more time, but this is something that we think can create strange situations. We think that something that you buy is yours and you control it, and we would not feel 100% comfortable with accessing/updating/changing equipment that is not ours.

                    There is nothing that prevents you from running our feeding software on a Raspberry Pi today. We don't have time and resources to build, certify and support any more hardware setups. As I wrote, we prefer to focus on our receiver where we have 100% control on hardware and software. For people building their own setups we offer the feeding software.

                    Originally posted by paradiselost View Post
                    Thank you for coming out a saying it.

                    Data quality

                    Real time stuff has some major problems with the condition of the network from Feeder to Server in Sweden.
                    That is beyond our control as Feeders. We are the customer of our ISP but from there several networks are traversed and neither us nor you are the Customer until it gets to your host. Packet delays can only under best case scenario be minimal Time stamping goes to Purgatory if there is a network outage.

                    MLAT triangulation requires several receivers tracking the same aircraft with overlapping coverage measuring the latency from the aircraft. The X marks the spot when the server computes the math and locates the target.

                    If MLAT is to work lots of overlapping receiver coverages must be in place. Feeders that complain of seldom seeing their radar recognized on FR24 will increase. It's the nature of the beast.

                    Asia and most of Africa will never become that concentrated so MLAT is not in their future.
                    Network speed and routing is something we are working on and improving all the time. Today we have 2 regional severs and more will follow.

                    Originally posted by paradiselost View Post
                    I have yet to hear from your customers that received "Free Boxes" to see how they are doing and answer questions about the equipment. Perhaps we could have a thread hearing from them.

                    Since the FR24 webpages are seldom updated is the following URL still valid? http://www.flightradar24.com/free-ads-b-equipment

                    Obsolete seldom right information lives on perpetually once it is on a web page.
                    As I said I'm not responsible for the for this process, but I can summarize how I understand it works.

                    * A users sends an application from http://www.flightradar24.com/free-ads-b-equipment
                    * A first screening is done and either a "no, thank you" is sent, or a request for more information is sent.
                    * If a users comes back with more information a second screening is done and either "no, thank you" is sent, or even more information is requested, or the application is approved.
                    * Reason for "no, thank you" could be:
                    ** Bad location (for example trees nearby or window installation with 180 degrees view).
                    ** Technical limits (for example long antenna cable or GSM transmitter nearby).
                    ** Not answering request for more information.
                    ** Good coverage in area with many receivers.
                    ** Area not prioritized right now.
                    ** Problems with distribution in user area.
                    * All applications are saved and a previous "no, thank you" application can be picked up later again if there is a need. In latest shipment applications ID's between about 500 and about 1000 was approved.

                    http://www.flightradar24.com/free-ads-b-equipment The list of locations was changed/updated last time about 6 hours ago.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      @Mike
                      Thanks for this nice clarification and the detailed explanations.

                      Regarding the box to sell, well look at the other commercial products on the market.
                      they are proprietary too and you can only install their software.
                      the only difference with the FR24 box is, that you do the "change management" for the buyer, which I think is great, because then the FR24 network is homogenous.
                      if any buyer signs an agreement you're safe to do so.

                      As for getting the "commercial version" ready for the market, I agree, lots of work and extensive testing needs to be done...but I am confident that the FR24 team will get there "one day" .
                      I'm happy to contribute and give feedback
                      Last edited by eddm_muc; 2013-08-15, 13:46.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        I agree with eddm_muc.

                        There are people who would run a radar - but wouldn't have the ability to do any configuration (not even set the WIFI password) unless it can be done from a windows or web application - so the more you can manage the better.

                        ---

                        I would be willing to help with testing if once you have something you want to spread the little "fr24" boxes out a little
                        ... that said, to notice the data from it here it might need to feed to a test environment so it doesn't get overshadowed by big FR24 boxes faster N & T feeders
                        (of course that would be under your control )

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          I have read this thread from start to finish.
                          Thank you Mike for the explanations on not seeing your own feed on the website. I do understand what you are saying.

                          However it seems to me that rightly or wrongly, there are a lot of feeders who feel, shall we say 'disappointed' at not seeing their feed and not feeling they contributed something that can be seen by anyone not just seeing the last upload time on the account oneself. I would like to suggest that there IS this feeling and FR24 can't simply ignore it by explaining how the system works over and over again. It is for FR24 to come up with a solution that keeps both their data the most up to date whilst keeping these large number of disappointed feeders feeling loved.

                          I am not in a position to make a serious suggestion on how this can be done, but for the long term satisfaction of this significant number of feeders something has to be done.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Mike View Post
                            I
                            MLAT
                            I know that Planeplotter has been running MLAT for some time now. If I understand it correctly they are running it with different receivers (except the radarbox) and many different solutions for the time synchronization, and in most cases without using a GPS
                            Planeplotter uses an NTP client installed on every system providing MLAT fixes.

                            I'm feeding Planeplotter and FlightRadar using an RTL dongle.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by paradiselost View Post
                              Planeplotter is a whole different kettle of fish, they require a recurring fee paid subscription to feed their network and extra for MLAT. Thanks but no thanks from the volunteer group helping here.
                              I only paid for the PlanePlotter program itself. There was no extra cost to feed their network and MLAT fixes are free if you feed consistently (much the same as the Premium service here).

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Mike
                                We never comment the identity of our feeders. Discussion is not relevant to this thread and will be removed.
                                Mike
                                it gets reallys weird now how you react

                                Since when is it not allowed to ask, if a feed originates from the same person..as long as no personal details are revealed?
                                This was purely a technical question!!!
                                Nothing else, just to find out if there was a better coverage now due to new equippment!

                                But I am confident that this is just another new FR24 box in the very close vicinity of an existing first time "hobby" feeder that made FR24 big.
                                and this pushes this valuable long term feeder away, as he really became obsolte now, looking at the more or less identical coverage.

                                I call that a slap in the face, nothing else.

                                You know, you are on the best way to really make all the non FR24 box feeders unhappy and make them turn away from FR24.

                                But it proofes that you are only interested in making FR24 a 100% commercial service...
                                the better coverage with your own boxes, which are under your control the better the stability and the better the product can be sold.
                                All these unreliable hobbyist who even invested lots of money and time to make the service better don't seem to count anymore...

                                I really do not understand this policy...
                                Last edited by eddm_muc; 2013-08-17, 13:37.

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