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Amsterdam Schiphol (EHAM) Ground vehicule (GRND)

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  • Amsterdam Schiphol (EHAM) Ground vehicule (GRND)

    http://x264.nl/dump/oh14-2013-05-04-...dam-harbor.jpg

    This guy is been in the Amsterdam Harbor for some days now. Changing, not much, it's location so now and then.

    From http://www.air.radiouk.com/page25.html I see:
    4846BB V AMSTERDAM OH 14 MAINTENANCE EQUIPMENT

    I am wondering is the location data bad like some planes also have bad location data via ADS-B or is it actually assisting in the Amsterdam Harbor?

    Edit:
    It's altitude is now: 16925 FL169
    Last night it was: 77700 FL777

    The heading also changes so now and then.

    Very curious what it is.
    Last edited by Jarod; 2013-05-04, 08:56.

  • #2
    Its a Ground Maintenance vehicle, the flight levels shown are errors.
    AMS Daily Fight Information: http://schiphol.dutchplanespotters.nl/

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by speedbird1960 View Post
      Its a Ground Maintenance vehicle, the flight levels shown are errors.
      Yes but, ALL ground signals (until now) had logical and correct ADS-B location data. So if it's still correct, what is it doing in the Amsterdam Harbor rather than the Airport?

      Also just now... http://x264.nl/dump/klm34g-2013-05-04-adsb-data-bad.jpg an example of a plane with bad location data. I read this is due to old transponders. But isn't this rather dangerous if ADS-B is actually going to be used?
      Those Fokker 70s seems to be off a lot.

      Edit:

      Just after posting this reply... the signal has vanished.
      Oh, just after posting it was gone... it re-appeared with no altitude and no heading.
      Last edited by Jarod; 2013-05-04, 09:40.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Jarod View Post
        Yes but, ALL ground signals (until now) had logical and correct ADS-B location data. So if it's still correct, what is it doing in the Amsterdam Harbor rather than the Airport?

        Also just now...an example of a plane with bad location data. I read this is due to old transponders. But isn't this rather dangerous if ADS-B is actually going to be used?
        Jarod,
        I had observed the following after having my radar for a short period of time back in 2008 and I contacted Air Services Australia (who are responsible for the implimentaton of ADS-B in Australia) and voiced similar concerns as you've expressed. I was informed that the more sophisticated equipment on aircraft was able to 'ignore' bad data such as shown below being transmitted by aircraft more so than our 'radars' were able to at the time and I was assured there was no danger at all. Since those days however our units, firmware and software have been updated but some operators still use older units and software. ( I havent updated mine in a year or so).

        UAL863.jpg LAN800.jpg

        I only wish I actually had that range on my radar! One LAN800 aircraft is another common one which to this day still displays bad data but again Air Services expressed no concerns at all. As time has gone by less and less of these situations is occuring although I think your reports are actually more to do with the older 'GNSS' style of position indicators which are being phased out in favour of the more precise 'GPS' on newer aircraft. So it's not so much 'old transponders.'

        Of course here in Australia regulation will soon ensure that these sorts of errors to which you refer are no longer permitted at all, at least on aircraft themselves. Besides the cost factor, these are all very good reasons why this technology is being phased in over a very long time-frame.

        Summing up, the problem certainly isnt anything to do with FR24.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_navigation

        Hope this helps to clarify your concerns, regards,
        Gregg
        Last edited by fungus; 2013-05-29, 05:18.
        YSSY2/T-YSSY4 [SBS-1 Basestation w/- SSE-1090 SJ Mk2 Antenna (Thanks Delcomp) ] [Uniden UBCD996T w/- 16 element Wideband Discone VHF/UHF Antenna, and tuned 108MHz-137MHz Airband Antenna] [Trialing a home-brew 1090MHz collinear antenna]

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks for the information. We shall see how it all develops.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Jarod View Post
            Thanks for the information. We shall see how it all develops.
            Thanks Jarod.
            Once again my post was not complete. I apologise for that. The situation I described in my previous post and shown in the 2 pics, used to result in aircraft showing all over the world in positions where they werent supposed to be displayed. FR24 have fixed this for the map display with their newer upload software which has the lat/long co-ordinates of our radars and is able to 'ignore' these aircraft positions with extreme bad data. However, I can still see it occuring on my radar on my PC.

            As the newer (and more) aircraft with GPS come on line and fewer of the older type aircraft are around the accuracy of the situation you describe will inevitably increase. It's still possible though to see some aircraft land alongside runways and park in strange positions but that also occurs on other tracking websites. It could also be due to some slight inaccuracies in the google maps. The tech guys might be able to add more information to that.

            The main point is that by the time it becomes mandatory for aircrraft to use ADS-B it will (and has been shown to be) safe, bearing in mind they arent relying on google maps (or FR24 for that matter) for their display but they use their ADS-B IN or ADS-B OUT equipment and displays on the aircraft itself. And the FR24 team is doing an amazing job of keeping up with all the rapid changes.


            Regards,
            Gregg
            Last edited by fungus; 2013-05-30, 21:01. Reason: edit
            YSSY2/T-YSSY4 [SBS-1 Basestation w/- SSE-1090 SJ Mk2 Antenna (Thanks Delcomp) ] [Uniden UBCD996T w/- 16 element Wideband Discone VHF/UHF Antenna, and tuned 108MHz-137MHz Airband Antenna] [Trialing a home-brew 1090MHz collinear antenna]

            Comment


            • #7
              Mis-positioning is as much to do with 'finger-trouble' when the flight crew can mis-enter an element of primary data to their FMS, whilst in the middle of pre-flight checks!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Duncan T View Post
                Mis-positioning is as much to do with 'finger-trouble' when the flight crew can mis-enter an element of primary data to their FMS, whilst in the middle of pre-flight checks!
                Duncan,
                Good point except that most modern airliners are equipped with FMC's that come with pre-programmed databases although there is some conjecture as to whether they are large enough to contain all necessary Airports, VOR's, NDB's, Vortac's and GPS waypoints for the entire world;

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_management_system

                http://www.mitre.org/work/tech_paper...24/12_1324.pdf

                I couldnt imagine an airline pilot these days having to manually program into their FMC all airport and waypoint data for their flight by hand. It'd be a massively long pre-flight check if they did, especially since the whole idea of an FMC (or FMS depending on manufacturer) is to reduce errors and pilot workload. AMS (Schipol) would be one airport where these errors are least likely to occur as I'd think it would be in every FMC database.
                However I'm not at all sure how this relates to ground vehicles. Once again though I would think at an airport the size of Schipol they'd want the ground vehicles to be displaying accurate data. Whether our radars pick up that accurate data every time they receive an input would be another matter.
                Regards,
                Gregg
                Last edited by fungus; 2013-05-31, 23:49.
                YSSY2/T-YSSY4 [SBS-1 Basestation w/- SSE-1090 SJ Mk2 Antenna (Thanks Delcomp) ] [Uniden UBCD996T w/- 16 element Wideband Discone VHF/UHF Antenna, and tuned 108MHz-137MHz Airband Antenna] [Trialing a home-brew 1090MHz collinear antenna]

                Comment


                • #9
                  Absolutely correct, but the driver still has to push a button or two, to select the desired pre-stored route info, or even ensure that the correct departure runway is selected! So far as Ground Vehicles may be concerned, it could simply be an airline's freight truck, with an ADS-B programme to identify its position whilst on the tarmac, being despatched to undertake a delivery down-town - who knows?

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