newbie questions

[saras]

hi yesterday i flew back on emirates ek17 a380 dubai to manchester and had some questions but the air stewerd had no time to explain so i would be gratefull if someone can answer.

1. How does the plane know which direction to go
2. When a plane is about to decent or land who controls the plane , pilots or automatic computer
2a. How does a pilot know where he is when flying in the dark or through clouds
2b. when aircraft encounters turbulence , to avoid do pilots go higher or decend.
2c. When aircraft flies over different countries do they need permission with the air traffic control
2.d. In my example of the a380 hedaing to dubai are the pilots always in radio contact with Dubai air traffic control?
3. Does the EK17 A380 fly over my city Nottingham

Iam sorry for asking these questions but it was my first ever flight

Many thanks

Steve saros

[saras]

hi yesterday i flew back on emirates ek17 a380 dubai to manchester and had some questions but the air stewerd had no time to explain so i would be gratefull if someone can answer.

1. How does the plane know which direction to go
2. When a plane is about to decent or land who controls the plane , pilots or automatic computer
2a. How does a pilot know where he is when flying in the dark or through clouds
2b. when aircraft encounters turbulence , to avoid do pilots go higher or decend.
2c. When aircraft flies over different countries do they need permission with the air traffic control
2.d. In my example of the a380 hedaing to dubai are the pilots always in radio contact with Dubai air traffic control?
3. Does the EK17 A380 fly over my city Nottingham

Iam sorry for asking these questions but it was my first ever flight

Many thanks

Steve saros

I know it may be stupid questions to ask but i cant believe no one has even bothered to reply

[fungus]

Steve,
they certainly arent stupid questions at all and I've been attempting to put together a response, perhaps too large for the limitations of the forum (and perhaps my own) since it keeps rejecting my posts when I submit them. They arent questions to which one can give a 10 word response or post a link or links which will answer them all appropriately. Watch this space and if FR24 (and computers in general) teaches us anything it's to have patience. I'm in Australia and sometimes even with relatively rapid responses it can take some days to catch up with each other. There's also the fact that we've all got different areas of expertise and/or knowledge and we arent all pilots or air traffic controllers. We also need to make sure that what we offer you is accurate.

Regards,
gregg

[fungus]

I think I can get this done in 2 parts. (you'll find the links in Part 2)
Part 1

Steve,
Firstly I'm not a pilot but I'll have a lash at helping you out with your questions as best I can. Your first question is what ultimately led me here to FR24.

It may be prudent to firstly understand a few points. Regular Public Transport (RPT) and cargo flights make up the bulk of flights (but are by no means all) that you may observe on FR24 and they cant take place without a valid flightplan (see link below) being submitted to Air Traffic Control (ATC) (again see link below) and approved by them prior to take off. These flights (or the bulk of them) take place in what's called Controlled Airspace (link below). (There are other types of flights and airspaces but that's for another occasion). Here in Australia Rescue and other Emergency Service aircraft like Police are able to submit a flightplan 'on the fly' and ATC will even do them on their behalf if necessary. An aircraft cannot deviate from its flightplan without the express permission of ATC for any reason unless an emergency arises and in that case the pilots advise ATC as early as is possible and they work together to get the aircraft down safely to wherever the pilots determine is prudent in the circumstances to do so. This is about the only time you'll find a pilot telling ATC what he intends or seeks to do with the expectation ATC will comply. Air Traffic Controllers get very narky with any pilot who deviates from the flightplan without permission or if any aircraft strays into Controlled Airspace without a clearance (and rightly so). I've heard some very heated exchanges at times when this occurs. A pilot will receive a clearance to proceed with the flightplan from ATC generally over the radio (usually via Clearance Delivery frequency at larger airports) just prior to departure. The flightplan includes route details such as departure airport, destination airport and an alternate destination airport (in case it's unable to land at its destination airport due to weather etc) with a list of waypoints which may be made up of IFR waypoints, VORs, VORTACs, NDBs and GPS co-ordinates and also includes proposed flight levels. When flying over large areas of water some waypoints are designated compulsory reporting points (where the pilot must report to ATC). The particular route planned may be influenced by things such as company policy, weather, winds aloft (tailwinds are preferred as they can save fuel and time) and of course air corridor considerations (where they are allowed to fly) etc. (use google for any terms)

With the advent of ADS-B technology which our receivers utilise (and as other technology is implemented) over time a great deal of this and what follows will invariably change.

For larger aircraft the pilot will program the flightplan into the Flight Management Computer (which may be known by other names depending on the particular aircraft manufacturer). Once activated and airborne the aircraft is to a large degree able to follow the flightplan in conjuction with the autopilot with little or no input from the pilots who mainly oversee the safe operation of the aircraft. There are two exceptions to this- landing and take off which is done by the pilot(s) manually (and sometimes a combination of both manual and with some help from 'Otto' the autopilot) although there are some major airports and aircraft so equipped which enable the aircraft to autoland right down to the runway. (google catagory I, II and III etc ILS landings and autolandings in general if you want further information on those).

Politics influences almost every aspect of our lives and aviation is no exception. In general terms each country has control via their politicians or governing body over the airspace above them and even includes airspace over the water which surrounds them (if any), however there is international oversight for the purpose of commonality where agreements are reached on airspace use from memory through an organisation known by the acronym ICAO. (There are more governing bodies overseeing the airline industry than just about any other industry in the world). Countries which do allow international flights access to their airspace may still have restricted areas (e.g. for military purposes etc). Hence the flight can only proceed through various countries with their individual agreement (which would be all stitched up prior to the flight and hopefully doesnt change throughout its duration) and after contacting their particular ATC sector as advsed by the previous ATC sector. (It can be seen as a bit like 'pass the parcel'). They cannot enter restricted areas (anywhere) unless those areas arent 'active' at the time and without ATC clearance.

So how does the aircraft know where to go? It's simply a matter of the pilots, ATC and the aircraft computers guiding the aircraft along its flightpath according to its flightplan from beginning to completion. As for climbing or descending at cruise depending on the mode control setting on the autopilot at the time the pilot may merely have to adjust the altitude hold of the autopilot on the aircrafts cockpit glareshield and the autopilot takes care of the rest although with modern tecnology as it now is there are likely a number of ways to achieve this. (A pilot could best advise on that). As mentioned above this deviation can only take place with the permission of ATC. Whether an aircraft climbs or descends will depend entirely on the circumstances at the time.

As for flying in the dark or through cloud pilots are highly skilled and trained and aircraft are equipped with sophisticated weather detection equipment to assist in avoiding the worst nature can throw at them (most of the time). In Australia basic pilots used to obtain an instrument rating for flying blind, flying the aircraft by instruments alone unable to look out the windshield at all (when being tested) but this could have now changed. They also required a night rating to enable them to fly after sunset. Airline pilots are trained well beyond those levels. They know exactly where they are at any given time during a flight by one of their instruments on the instrument panel (the Navigation Display) which has a map with their aircraft icon in the centre and contains a variety of relevent information and is adjustable depending on preferences. Again, google 'Navigation Display' and you'll find a lot about them (including pics). Many airlines are including a rudimentary nav display (I've been told, I havent seen one) in the back of the passenger seats for them to watch during flight. I've included a link to a nice 360 degree cockpit view of the Airbus A380 below for you to have a look at which includes the nav display, primary flight display etc. It's one of the best I've seen on the net. ATC have been known to also tell them where they are particularly if they arent where they should be.

[fungus]

Part 2

Pilots will often ask ATC for 'ride reports' or 'wind and ride reports' from ATC or other pilots (through ATC and not generally directly unless on company frequency or air to air comms frequencies for pilot to pilot chat) who are flying ahead of them on the same flightpath or flightlevel (or another level if the ride seems less turbulent) and then ask for a change of altitude and you guessed it- they get it only where ATC give permission to do so. Pilots often advise ATC of the amount of turbulence (or lack of it) in a particular sector at their level or even what it was like on climb or descent at certain levels or if any windshear is encountered (usually in proximity of an airport) or of icing on the wings etc for the benefit of other pilots. ATC may also advise pilots of turbulence or icing at certain flight levels and it's not uncommon for a pilot to ask for a 'block' of flight levels within which to fly. They are always seeking calm air for their own sakes, for the sake of the passengers and for fuel savings. When at cruise the autopilot handles the flying hence the seatbelt sign goes off and passengers are free to roam around the aircraft. However when about to land or take off since the pilot can be flying the aircraft manually (in the vicinity of the airport) you need to be strapped in so as they dont have to contend with everyone wanting to see something on one side of the aircraft or the other and unbalancing it at its most vulnerable stage of flight. (I wouldnt mind betting a lot of people think the seatbelt is only for their own protection. That's only partly correct). If you watch FR24 in an area of particularly nasty weather (e.g. thunderstorm cells) you will see some interesting variations to the normal flightpaths. You can also pick out the predetermined flightpaths in some areas by the 'conga lines' of aircraft. Also, now with the new vertical speed feature (which we've always had on our radars) you may notice some frequent changes in pitch (and altitude) due to turbulence in those areas affected.

As for your example with Dubai ATC the aircraft will only be in contact with them when flying within their sector (some sectors are large, some small when nearer airports). Pilots are required to do a large amount of frequency changes on there communications radios (as well as navigation radios at times if they need to tell 'Otto' what to do) and can be extremely busy doing so and talking to a large variety of individual Air Traffic Controllers during a given flight. Dubai ATC would however be expecting a particular departing or arriving flight through the ATC computers sytems by virtue of the submitted flightplans.

As for whether EK17 A380 would fly over Nottingham I cant say. That's one of the delights of FR24, I can only recommend that you check it out on the map and see. Factors that could influence that would be if an air route exists over Nottingham (I've only got those on my radar for my area), what the aircrafts route is on a particular day, the weather and in particular the wind direction which will determine the active runway at the airport. The SIDs (standard instrument departure) and STARs (standard instrument arrival) for any airport (most of which can be found on the net but not used for navigation) for which they are associated often change according to the wind and weather on any given day and are updated (changed) on a regular basis. Hence you may not always see the same approaches or departures at a given airport all the time. ATC sequencing (where they organise the spacing of aircraft on approach to land, on departure and at cruise) can also impact this issue.Something else that impacts on flightpaths is pilots seeking track shortening which ATC will sometimes allow. Here in Australia aircraft are restricted to a maximum speed of 250 knots (indicated) below 10,000 feet (the transition altitude) and it's not uncommon for pilots to seek cancellation of this restriction on departure if they are late and want to make up time. On arrival they've been known to declare a medical emergency and will be given priority Med 1 clearance (here in Australia) and whatever they need to get to the airport in as short a time as possible. These factors can all impact on where you'll see a particular aircraft on any given day. I did get the opportunity to observe this flight into Manchester from the north on 14_09_12 but it was using rwy 23 (I didnt see which of them, there's 2 - left and right) and so was a long way north of Nottingham on approach.

I'd also recommend investing in a good quality digital scanner if you're interested as you can learn so much about aviation and ATC just by listening. There's also http://www.liveatc.net/ or http://www.globaltuners.com/ if you want to listen on the net but unfortunately they dont include all UK based frequencies (among others) as I believe it's currently illegal. From memory liveatc does include some from Shannon.

As for asking the steward, whilst they're very good at serving food and drinks and making passengers comfortable during flight (they are highly trained for that purpose) I doubt they'd have been able to tell you much about the pointy end of the aircraft. I hope that this satisfactorily answers your questions. Any further questions ask away. If I cant answer them somebody will and if I've given you information here that either isnt quite accurate or current you can be assured of one thing. Some one will let us know.

regards,
gregg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_plan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_traffic_control

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_airspace

http://www.gillesvidal.com/blogpano/cockpit1.htm

[saras]

FUNGUS you are a superstar
many many thanks for taking time to provide a very helpfull and interesting response

[fungus]

Steve,

I cant argue with your assessment, but in all seriousness it's a pleasure. That's what we're here for and I hope you and others find it both interesting and useful.

gregg


The following images indicate something of which i spoke about in my previous post. The first indicates the variation in approach to RWY 07 (this particular time) at YSSY (SYD) Sydney Australia (the brown lines leading to the extension of the runway centre line in yellow) and can be for any of the reasons I outlined and more. The 2nd is indicative if the turbulence experienced at some flight levels on occasions shown by the rapid changes in colour of the track of the aircraft which flew west to east. Dark blue is flying level, light blue shows an increase in altitude and brown a lowering of altitude. The small gaps in the track are where I lose signal from the aircraft. The colours arent representative of all our radar receivers as they are completely adjustable. Also bear in mind my radar is set to show variations in altitude of greater than 100ft.


APP VARIATIONS.jpg


TURB1.jpg

[fungus]

How an aircraft gets from A to B (etc)

As an addendum to my previous post in answer to a series of questions from Steve revolving around how an aircraft gets from A to B etc, I thought it might be appropriate to post the following vid. It was posted on the chat recently by a Canadian member (CYCD2) and I thank him for it. The vid. is of a Lufthansa A380 (flight LH454) on approach and landing at KSFO (SFO) (San Francisco, USA) RWY 28R from the cockpit perspective.

It displays the interaction between ATC (Air Traffic Control) and the pilots and the pilots and the aircraft via the Autopilot and the actual controls used by the pilots in places far more eloquently than my words ever could have in the original post. Some discussion between the pilots is in German but is translated in text on the vid. so isnt an issue.

WARNING: the vid. is some 14 and a half minutes in length so if you have a download limit use caution. Also if you are a pilot or familiar with Flight Simulator it may not be of quite so much interest. I would also recommend viewing it full screen (2nd button bottom right) if only for the stunning scenery but the instrument panel is also much easier to read.

Enjoy LH454;

http://www.wimp.com/approachlanding/

I couldnt resist adding this one, Condor596 an A320 landing at GCLA;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ym2dlP6P8o

Regards,
gregg

[Birdie]

I know it may be stupid questions to ask but i cant believe no one has even bothered to reply

Whahahaaaaa ....

Pls don't blame anyone for not answering your STUPID questions. It might make the person who answered them look stupid.

1st = you asked the most dumb person on board = the cabin crew = other than serving food and drinks, they know nuts about aircraft.

[fungus]

Whahahaaaaa ....

Pls don't blame anyone for not answering your STUPID questions. It might make the person who answered them look stupid.

1st = you asked the most dumb person on board = the cabin crew = other than serving food and drinks, they know nuts about aircraft.

Birdie there was absolutely no need for that thanks- even if they were stupid questions (which they werent as I had stated) there's certainly no need to put down either Steve or the cabin crew of aircraft. Please butt out if that's all you have to add to a discussion.

There's no such thing as a dumb question, only dumb mistakes.

Gregg

[Birdie]

Please don't feel offended by my answer.

Hi Fungus, my apologies. I don't mean to pull down anyone.

I have friends who are cabin crews and pilots. During our regular coffee sessions, I used to probe the cabin crews these stupid questions and saw their shocked faces. Don't ask cabin crews those questions.

[fungus]

Please don't feel offended by my answer.

Hi Fungus, my apologies. I don't mean to pull down anyone.

I have friends who are cabin crews and pilots. During our regular coffee sessions, I used to probe the cabin crews these stupid questions and saw their shocked faces. Don't ask cabin crews those questions.

Ok Birdie, you obviously need it with both barrels. The comments you made were offensive and not only that you dont seem to understand that the original post by Steve was made in August last year- that's almost 6 months ago and you want to abuse him. Look before you leap mate.

You've also succeeded in taking the focus of the thread away from a great vid. and turned it into a slagging exercise of vitriol against people, including your 'friends'

Well done!