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Northolt Finally Reported As A Destination For Non Blacked Out Flights

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  • Oblivian
    replied
    Wouldn't have magically started just because they added the map pin. You would always have seen full ADSB aircraft on the map going to ground level if you watched the area long enough. Just not an official flag that indicated it's where it stopped on the info panel.

    Just like my unknown example landing on the ground at an airport.

    It's not 'my own'

    So I can't answer it. But I understand there are multiple agreements in place being one of the primary found tracking sites to adhere to requests of individuals (BARR and ASDI) and other agencies.

    You don't poke hornets nests if they are larger and ask nice.

    The official stance had Anmer and myself not stepped in. Would likely have been, 'read the FAQ'

    https://www.flightradar24.com/faq

    Why aren't all airports marked with a blue point?
    There are many thousands of airports around the world. Showing all airports would completely cover the map in airport pins. The primary feature of the blue point is the possibility to click and show the arrival & departure boards. In order to keep the map clean we only plot airports with regular and daily scheduled passenger traffic.
    Why is the route information incorrect?
    The route is not transmitted from the aircraft. We are receiving the callsign of the flight from the aircraft and comparing it with large databases of airline and airport schedules to find the matching flight number. Once the callsign is matched to a flight number, we are able to show the route of the flight. A few reasons why a route may be incorrect:

    Changed flight plans
    Wrong or old callsign typed into the transponder
    Error in some of the schedule databases
    Long flight delay, which makes the schedule data match against wrong flight
    By default we block sensitive aircraft such as those associated with military or governmental operations. For private aircraft, we can block flight tracking information at the owners request. For enquiries about aircraft blocking and unblocking, please contact us.

    Leave a comment:


  • Capvermell
    replied
    Whatever the reasons for the technical anomalies with the data regarding flights in to NHT it has certainly been interesting to be able to find out more about the type of aircraft and the origin of quite a lot of the private jet flights in to the airport than was formerly possible with just the human eye and a pair of binoculars.

    However there has definitely been a recent move in the direction of restricting the release of data about military or other sensitive governmental flights for the usual avoidance of terrorism related reason.

    So I can take it that obscuring this data is in the hands of those operating those aircraft rather than websites like your own that pass such data onwards?

    Leave a comment:


  • Oblivian
    replied
    Originally posted by Capvermell View Post
    Previously Northolt didn't seem to be added to the map as a valid destination airport and so hence was also not a valid destination. But that now seems to have changed?


    But in this case the flight origin was shown as Bordeaux and the flight track of the route also clearly confirmed the aircraft as having originated from that same airport.
    FR24 don't have a log of when they add/remove destinations. So we won't know if/when it changed. The best they give is only airports with frequently 'seen' and common flights to/from are generally added to save on screen space for mobiles.

    Yes. Your example is correct. BUT

    Unless the flight is logged with an official flightplan with named source, and destination. Routes can be dynamic based on radar coverage if that log doesn't exist. If the departure locations are under good cover in these cases. There is a fair bet it will get it right.

    Destinations can be another story. Likewise, if there was no radar near it. It may not have shown an origin at all. Or, it just plain gets one of them wrong for some reason or other.

    And not due to being part of any conspiracy or masking of aircraft to/from a particular location and or airport traffic. It's all down to the individual airframe and the accuracy of the FR24 databases

    Heres a good example. We're off to paris! Oh wait.. no, actually Rotterdam.

    XGO2PB.jpg

    Where FA is more correct. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/XGO2PB

    Or unmarked/unknown airport

    XGO4KC.JPG
    Last edited by Oblivian; 2018-09-18, 11:34.

    Leave a comment:


  • Capvermell
    replied
    Originally posted by Oblivian View Post
    Likewise, if the airport is not added to the map. It doesn't then usually qualify for a 'destination'
    Previously Northolt didn't seem to be added to the map as a valid destination airport and so hence was also not a valid destination. But that now seems to have changed?

    So If theres little to no coverage, the destination will also often be cut short. And wrong.

    You can see this on private aircraft where they use the same callsign every flight. And or registration as their callsign. It will say it come from 1 place, thats hundreds of miles away. As it was the 'last places it went to using that callsign'
    But in this case the flight origin was shown as Bordeaux and the flight track of the route also clearly confirmed the aircraft as having originated from that same airport.

    Leave a comment:


  • Oblivian
    replied
    For non standard routes/flights, where the airports are not known from the supplier of the data FR24 get it from. The 'next best guess' is often made and filled into the source/destination labels by the nearest radars.

    Likewise, if the airport is not added to the map. It doesn't then usually qualify for a 'destination'

    So If theres little to no coverage, the destination will also often be cut short. And wrong.

    You can see this on private aircraft where they use the same callsign every flight. And or registration as their callsign. It will say it come from 1 place, thats hundreds of miles away. As it was the 'last places it went to using that callsign'

    Exhibit A
    https://www.flightradar24.com/data/a...k-ljj#1de178b5
    https://www.flightradar24.com/data/a...k-ljj#1de7d2ad

    Pro tip. It never left the main city to get near Timaru. But says it did. Cause it did once previously.

    Leave a comment:


  • Capvermell
    replied
    Now that forum admin have belatedly implemented my request to move this thread to the correct forum section (instead of Planeplotter where I accidentally originally posted it) I think its worth pointing out that the change that has recently occurred that I welcome is that Northolt or NHT is now supported as a valid flight destination for non blacked out civilian flights in to this airport.

    Previously Flightradar24 and other websites acted as though Northolt was simply not a valid airport destination and so while I could find the track of a non blacked out flight in to Northolt I heard landing overhead at Stoke Poges it would never be shown as landing at Northolt, even though I could then find its track and watch it land on and taxi down to the end of the runway and park until its transponder was switched off.

    So this is a welcome improvement in data provided by flight tracking websites in relation to this airport.

    Speaking of which I must try and get along to its Open Day next year having never managed to remember to get one of these so far.

    See http://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/news/...tholt-12826100

    and

    https://srra.org.uk/2017/03/raf-nort...th-march-2017/

    Leave a comment:


  • Capvermell
    replied
    Originally posted by Anmer View Post
    Most flights into Northolt are likely to be "blocked".

    I still think your assumption that seeing this flight is a consequence of FR24 entering "some kind of agreement with the military and the government." is pure speculation and incorrect.
    I suppose how the flight info blocking actually gets done and who is in control may depend on the actual technical method. It may be that the military and/or government now have a way for them to choose whether or not this data is made available to flight tracking websites and those websites themselves have no control over that matter.

    I would say that in general all private jet flights that are non governmental and non military in to Northolt can be tracked in terms of the flight path but that it is a new development to see both the 3 character airport code point of origin and NHT as the flight destination also shown. However in my observation there are now substantially less private jet flights than there were three or so years ago in to Northolt due to the war of business protection that Farnborough, Biggin Hill, Luton and London City have all been waging on Northolt encroaching on to their business turf. So they are obviously using arguments about runway safety and/or these commercial slots not being priced competitively in order to keep those operations down to an absolute minimum.

    Leave a comment:


  • Anmer
    replied
    Originally posted by Capvermell View Post
    Its not at all wild speculation but based both on previous feedback from this website and my own empirical evidence of observing flights clearly landing in to NHT and then checking flightradar24.com to see what data is available about them.
    FR24, along with other flight tracking sites, "blocks" some civil and most military flights. Civil are usually private as opposed to airline flights.

    Most flights into Northolt are likely to be "blocked".

    I still think your assumption that seeing this flight is a consequence of FR24 entering "some kind of agreement with the military and the government." is pure speculation and incorrect.

    But I too could be wrong. Only FR24 can confirm or otherwise.

    Leave a comment:


  • Capvermell
    replied
    Just realised that I started in this thread in the wrong section of the forum called Planeplotter (which actually refers to some kind of software for tracking I believe) and not in Planespotting as I had intended.

    So I would be grateful if a moderator would move this thread to the right section of the forum and also delete this last post. Many thanks.

    Leave a comment:


  • Capvermell
    replied
    Originally posted by Anmer View Post
    Wild and probably inaccurate speculation.
    Its not at all wild speculation but based both on previous feedback from this website and my own empirical evidence of observing flights clearly landing in to NHT and then checking flightradar24.com to see what data is available about them.

    All of these aircraft, apart from possibly some really ancient military freighter crates from the 1960s or 1970s, have modern transponders and TCAS etc to avoid crashes. But apparently in order for this or other similar websites (I don't use the others as this one always seems to work best) not to be seen to be potentially facilitating possible terrorist acts against attractive targets (eg government ministers, senior military personnel or certain celebrities who use the airport when civilian jet slots are opened up either following or just before a government or military flight) there are a very significant number of aircraft that I can hear and observe landing in the airport but on which no data of any kind (not even the flight track) is any longer provided by this website. And I suspect it is the fact that the airport has so few flights that makes any individual flight a terrorist might target potentially a more easily vulnerable target (compared to say busy Heathrow)

    On the other hand previously NHT was not even considered as a valid destination airport by flightradar24 and other similar sites and so the flight data on the aircraft for which flight tracks did show never showed NHT as being the destination and frequently also didn't show an origin (instead I would have to expand the map and follow the flight track to find out where they had originated from).

    As there are generally only 10 to 15 inbound movements in to NHT per day its pretty easy to be specific about what is going on and long terms trends in the flight tracking data available via this and other websites for those flights. Especially as our family happens to have owned this house right underneath the Northolt inbound flightpath from the west for the last 50 years exactly.

    Leave a comment:


  • Anmer
    replied
    Originally posted by Capvermell View Post
    who's transponder information is not now blacked out by this website as a result of some kind of agreement with the military and the government.
    Wild and probably inaccurate speculation.

    Leave a comment:


  • Northolt Finally Reported As A Destination For Non Blacked Out Flights

    I heard a whining high pitched aircraft overhead just now, clearly on its way in to Northolt (this location in Stoke Poges is right under the lined up landing flight path in to Northolt from the West) and so hit Flightradar 24 expecting to see no flight plot at all (which is now the case for most military or UK government aircraft using this airport, although one used to be able to see the flight track but not the official origin or destination with most such flights, including the Queen's own helicopter).

    So anyway I was impressed to find that with this Piaggio P180 aircraft from Bordeaux (which looks like a private business jet bringing someone back from either smart summer holidays or a major professional wine buying research trip) that at long last Northolt (NHT) is finally shown by Flightradar24 as an actual destination airport for the small number of flights in to the airport (there are never more than 20 inbound and outbound movements a day at the very most and frequently much less than this with a general declining trend since Farnborough and Biggin Hill etc began complaining about unfair competition from the military and/or making spiteful interventions about safety standards at the airport) who's transponder information is not now blacked out by this website as a result of some kind of agreement with the military and the government.

    A copy of the screen capture for the said event is shown below.

    INortholt P180 Flight.jpg
    Last edited by Capvermell; 2018-09-12, 09:46.
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