Malaysia Airlines Flight Goes Missing En Route to China - Flight MH370

[longpig_yum]

Possible Objects found Southern Indian Ocean

http://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/22075012/credible-info-plane-in-indian-ocean-pm/

[Oblivian]

Press conference called for 4:30UTC - probably to display/discuss images and reasoning

[fungus]

AMSA , The Australian Maritime Safety Authority is to hold a briefing in relation to 'possible' debris found in the search area (of the Indian Ocean to the sth west of Australia) being conducted by Australian and other search operators (from memory US and New Zealand) the area being related to the missing MH370 at 15:30 today. That is, in about 30 minutes time. Sorry I cant locate a link (seen on ABC TV News24, television news bulletin if anyone else can pick up on it) as I'm not feeling too flash but wish to contribute something on what I'm seeing (and others) and also hearing in the news bulletins.

Please bear in mind that I realise we've been down this track previously and unfortunately with a negative outcome, but hopefully for the sake of all those involved this may lead to something helpful. I sincerely hope that nothing we are doing here will add to the grief of the relatives and their friends.

Hopefully this and any following news may also bring an end to the endless (and oft ridiculous) speculation surrounding this incident. Then all us armchair experts can go back to bed.

Regards and over and out,
Gregg

Not related to AMSA briefing but to breaking news as also found by others in previous posts,

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-20/abbott-says-possible-objects-found-mh370/5334314

News sources are also wisely advising caution in regard to all these reports. Also hearing (again on a news report) an A380 pilot is now cautioning that with 7 hours endurance in the incident aircraft it may be unlikely. I dunno

P.S. searching for a link to AMSA briefing. AMSA website seems to have folded under pressure!

Update: On listening to the briefing, the RCC (Rescue Co-ordination Centre) and another authority after having had detail provided by satellite information, AMSA were stating "which MAY or MAY NOT" be related to the missing MH370. It is "YET TO BE TO BE FOUND (by search aircraft) AND CONFIRMED". "RAAF P-3's (Orions) are heading directly to the search area."

Twitter seems to be onto the AMSA briefing (apologies if this is a red herring- I dont follow twitter or have an account);

https://twitter.com/Y7News/status/446506922942795777

Thanks Oblivian for the follow-up information (see few posts further on). This aussie also doesnt make things up. (wink).
Very important for us to exercise caution at this stage and please note my use of 'possible' and 'yet to be found and confirmed' in this post.

Heaven help us if we are simply adding to the already too numerous false alarms.

..... back to bed.

Further update;

'HMAS Success' is now steaming towards the search area and one of the Orion's is due back at Perth after being on station in the area.

[voyager10]

Pardon me as a novice - beginner and I am just an ordinary Joe
and not any FA, so just throwing some basic questions out of my very curiosity for you Flight attendant expertise folks here. Pardon me if I sound total silly.

1. In any plane, the inside air-conditioned air , I mean heating-cooling is maintained and how it reflects with the outside air pressure / outside temp / air thinness outside,. Etc and can it create any pressure difference or chances to collapse and crash the structure ( plane walls ) due to this, or how this factor is taken care of. Pray explain.

2. When a plan flies at a lower altitude, I guess, the earth gravity ( plane’s weight ) is more effective, dense air also needs more Thrust power, also the lift will be very resistance due to this factor, and hence perhaps using more engine power/fuel,.. etc. On the other hand at a higher altitude, ( say 35k ) the plane weight, gravity of earth is less,..air is thin,.. clouds and other air resistance is low,. So plane gets good lift, and also thrust and minimal drag, and hence better efficiency, but on the other hand,… you are enlarging the radius of a circle, hence more is its periphery, means more distance he will have to fly ! Right ? So again it needs more fuel. How this cost efficient factor is compromised, and which is more cheaper/safe ( high / low altitude )

3. Earth surface is a curvature, so while flying straight, do you still make an angle facing towards the earth surface, so that a plane may not fly in a straight line and can walk away into the space ! How this Earth curvature effect is taking care of while flying straight.

4. I have seen many videos on you tube, where a bird hits the plane, gets into the propeller creating a fire and such,.. so how many chances are like that, which can bring the plane down ! I mean, at the takeoff/landing if a bird gets into the propeller and can known down the flight !

5. Are all planes so safe in lightening? Why and How? Because the circuit never closes in the sky? General when on the ground , if you see much lightening, they say seat inside the car because the tires are not conductor of the electricity but still when it’s wet and periphery is watered-wet all around,. It can still flow the current. So what principle worked out there, for a plane to be totally safe from any lightening.

6. Which flying is safer? At a lower height of 3-4k ? or,… 35-45k?

7. Earth has got 2/3 of water, so how come all the planes ( international flights ) may not be having it a must requirement of having a glider facility, so that, any flight can take emergency landing in water, when needed in any emergency ?

8. Why every plane not be video monitored of its cockpit and passenger area of its activity on the ground floor control towering room ?

9. Just like ISS station, why we do not have 20-50 of such special satellites from UN, who control and governs every plane’s and lots of pinging and data activity and all other possible readings, so it can be re-opened / recovered when such situation happens like MH370

10. Why a plane can not be facilitated to 10s of other way of communication and video monitors thro out, so that any 1-3 CVR or this and that fails,. Still they have other 10s of way to talk to at least someone ! What is so difficult to video monitor the entire plane of its each compartment of every activity, been recorded downstairs, which can be rewind and viewed, just like any CCTV cameras ?


Thank you all in advance.

[Alex Smart]

It's possible that a radar technician somewhere in Malaysia knows the answer to that. We don't know because the Malaysian government has changed its story several times. We don't know which version (if any) of their story is the true story.

You have to understand that air traffic control systems used by airliners gets its altitude data from each plane's transponder signal. No transponder, no altitude data. Malaysia claims that the transponder on MH370 was turned off around the time it went missing.


That depends on how the flight management system and/or autopilot was programmed. The FMS can be programmed to go into a holding pattern when the plane reaches its destination, as was the case of Helios Flight 522, which crashed in Athens after a pressurization problem incapacitated the crew and passengers. OTOH other flights with napping pilots have overshot their destinations, namely Northwest Flight 188.

If the plane's cockpit was left unattended after the alleged initial left turn, and there were no other turns/waypoints programmed into the FMS, it would have continued on to somewhere west of Australia and run out of fuel. The thing is...if one unusual turn was programmed into the FMS, there's no reason why more turns weren't also programmed. Furthermore there's no evidence to suggest that the missing plane was first directed away from its destination under positive control and after that simply neglected.

If we apply Ockham's Razor, we must reject the more fanciful ides in favor of the most straightforward. And with what we know to date, the plane was probably piloted (more or less) up until it returned to earth or positive control was lost.


The area where the plane could possibly have gone is HUGE! It will take a lot of time and money to do an exhaustive search. In addition, some nations have denied SAR overflight of their airspace.

Hello Speed Daemon,
Just seen your post in reply to my questions put earlier.
I had only just deleted the post as I had thought there had been nil response .
Many thanks for your time and the answers.

In an earlier post I did brush on the fact that if the passengers were still OK then the rescuers should take a McDonnalds or KFC with them. Sorry to say that I now see that there is a McDonalds Island down under that I was not aware of.

Alex

[whatsgoingonhere]

Possible sighting in South Indian Ocean!, Aussie latest news.....

[Oblivian]

That was a rather open press conf I just listened to. No confirmation. As pointed out "significant" "credible" 24m chunk in the ocean, waterlogged. But unlike overseas speculators are not confirming anything until the 4 ac arrive or ships relocate the site seen on the satellite. It may be up to 8kms deep in areas. They can only search for 2hr periods once they arrive on site as it is so far out. So as normal, sit, listen and wait for more. These aussies do not muck about or make stories up.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

[whatsgoingonhere]

That was a rather open press conf I just listened to. No confirmation. As pointed out "significant" "credible" 24m chunk in the ocean, waterlogged. But unlike overseas speculators are not confirming anything until the 4 ac arrive or ships relocate the site seen on the satellite. It may be up to 8kms deep in areas. They can only search for 2hr periods once they arrive on site as it is so far out. So as normal, sit, listen and wait for more. These aussies do not muck about or make stories up.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

We have been known to spin a yarn or two Oblivian .....but definitely not when it comes to these situations.

[Speed Daemon]

1. In any plane, the inside air-conditioned air , I mean heating-cooling is maintained and how it reflects with the outside air pressure / outside temp / air thinness outside,. Etc and can it create any pressure difference or chances to collapse and crash the structure ( plane walls ) due to this, or how this factor is taken care of. Pray explain.

As a jet plane ascends and the outside air becomes thinner (and colder BTW), the jet engines' compressors compress the air, just as is done in car engines, in order to prepare it for combustion. Some of that air is diverted into the cabin in order to maintain an air pressure that's comfortable for the people inside. Compression raises temperature, so the air conditioning packs cool the hot compressed air down to a more comfortable temperature. The structure of the plane is designed to withstand the pressure difference; nothing can be done to the pressurization system or A/C that would affect structural integrity.

2. When a plan flies at a lower altitude, I guess, the earth gravity ( plane’s weight ) is more effective, dense air also needs more Thrust power, also the lift will be very resistance due to this factor, and hence perhaps using more engine power/fuel,.. etc. On the other hand at a higher altitude, ( say 35k ) the plane weight, gravity of earth is less,..air is thin,.. clouds and other air resistance is low,. So plane gets good lift, and also thrust and minimal drag, and hence better efficiency, but on the other hand,… you are enlarging the radius of a circle, hence more is its periphery, means more distance he will have to fly ! Right ? So again it needs more fuel. How this cost efficient factor is compromised, and which is more cheaper/safe ( high / low altitude )

Jet engines like cold air, and are more efficient at higher altitudes, within limits. The thinner air at higher altitudes also reduces drag. Any difference in gravitational pull is negligible. Different engines have different zones of maximum efficiency. Most commercial jets work best at between 30,000 and 40,000 feet. The Concorde and some military jets can (could) fly higher.

3. Earth surface is a curvature, so while flying straight, do you still make an angle facing towards the earth surface, so that a plane may not fly in a straight line and can walk away into the space ! How this Earth curvature effect is taking care of while flying straight.

Air breathing planes cannot fly into space for two reasons: 1.) they require atmospheric air to support combustion, and 2.) cannot fly fast enough to break free of the earth's gravitational pull.

4. I have seen many videos on you tube, where a bird hits the plane, gets into the propeller creating a fire and such,.. so how many chances are like that, which can bring the plane down ! I mean, at the takeoff/landing if a bird gets into the propeller and can known down the flight !

Airports work hard to keep large birds out of the area. Still bird strikes are fairly common. I don't know if propeller planes or more or less resistant to bird strikes. Bird ingestion can cause jet engines to stop working, and even damage them severely. Most of the time the plane can still land safely.

5. Are all planes so safe in lightening? Why and How? Because the circuit never closes in the sky? General when on the ground , if you see much lightening, they say seat inside the car because the tires are not conductor of the electricity but still when it’s wet and periphery is watered-wet all around,. It can still flow the current. So what principle worked out there, for a plane to be totally safe from any lightening.

I presume that you mean lightning not making them lighter. Yes, lightning can and does strike planes. Most of the time it passes through the metal skin with little damage. Newer planes that have more plastic parts are more susceptible to lightning damage. This can be mitigated by putting some conductive metal on top of the plastic to conduct away the lightning. By the same token, the thing that makes cars safe from lightning is their metal bodies, not their rubber tires. Cars made of fiberglass are not safe places in a lightning storm.

6. Which flying is safer? At a lower height of 3-4k ? or,… 35-45k?

A good pilot should be able to fly with equal safety at all altitudes.

7. Earth has got 2/3 of water, so how come all the planes ( international flights ) may not be having it a must requirement of having a glider facility, so that, any flight can take emergency landing in water, when needed in any emergency ?

The best way to ensure safe flight over water is to have very reliable engines. Jet engines are extremely reliable. Far better to make a plane that keeps flying than one that's good at crashing.

8. Why every plane not be video monitored of its cockpit and passenger area of its activity on the ground floor control towering room ?

That's technically possible, but costly, and most people don't like being watched everywhere they go.

9. Just like ISS station, why we do not have 20-50 of such special satellites from UN, who control and governs every plane’s and lots of pinging and data activity and all other possible readings, so it can be re-opened / recovered when such situation happens like MH370

The United Nations does not govern airplanes.

10. Why a plane can not be facilitated to 10s of other way of communication and video monitors thro out, so that any 1-3 CVR or this and that fails,. Still they have other 10s of way to talk to at least someone ! What is so difficult to video monitor the entire plane of its each compartment of every activity, been recorded downstairs, which can be rewind and viewed, just like any CCTV cameras ?

Sorry, I don't understand what you're saying here.

[voyager10]

^^ Thanks for your very honest answers, sir.

.

Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia (CNN) -- Authorities have spotted two objects in the Indian Ocean that are possibly related to the search for missing Malaysia Airlines Flight 370, Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott said Thursday.
"New and credible information has come to light in relation to the search for Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 in the southern Indian Ocean," Abbott said in the the Australian House of Representatives in Canberra. "The Australian Maritime Safety Authority has received information based on satellite imagery of objects possibly related to the search.
"Following specialist analysis of this satellite imagery, two possible objects related to the search have been identified," he said. "I can inform the House that a Royal Australian Air Force Orion has been diverted to attempt to locate the objects."
Three other planes will carry out a "more intensive follow-up search," he said.


MH370: two objects relating to missing Malaysia Airways plane may have been found - live
Australian prime minister announces possible findings related to search mission in Indian Ocean
Two possible objects may have been found in Indian ocean based on "credible" information
Maritime authorities to hold press conference shortly
Search area near Australia had earlier halved in size

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/19/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-plane/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/20/mh370-two-possible-objects-may-have-been-found-in-australian-search-zone

[flyingduck]

Yeah, I suppose if you forget about timestamps on the aircraft side, which I think was overcomplicating it, position could be estimated with decent accuracy based on latency for the round trip 'ping' response, minus known delays inside equipment (this part testable in a lab).

Edit:

smay69 your post further validates it.

flyingduck: I thought about using amplitude, but seeing as that could be affected by weather, and because it's a 2 way communication, it seemed better to use latency. Still could be amplitude though, and it would be useful for validating your calculations.

xlynx, smay69 - excellent ideas about using the latency too.

On a GSM network. latency is not normally logged and the pings is more akin to periodical location update/registration (i.e. hey I am alive and I am here). Sat network could work differently of course.

Woke up to read that the Aussie may have found something and I shall keep watching the updates.

[PM2014]

Nine News in Sydney have just shown the satellite image of the two objects. Nothing to distinguish what they were...

[YSWG]

Images are now on the ABC News website.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-20/raaf-en-route-to-possible-debris-from-mh370-in-indian-ocean/5334314

[zed]

Nine News in Sydney have just shown the satellite image of the two objects. Nothing to distinguish what they were...

Having 3 planes go to investigate based on those grainy images seems ludicrous, so I'm guessing they are privy to higher res images or have more information than what we have at this moment.

[Exadios]

Having 3 planes go to investigate based on those grainy images seems ludicrous, so I'm guessing they are privy to higher res images or have more information than what we have at this moment.

They are getting radar returns.

The three planes are not all there at the same time. They are running lines in the area around the debris.