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Malaysia Airlines Flight Goes Missing En Route to China - Flight MH370

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  • Originally posted by peterhr View Post
    but 1 second pings to satellite would probably overwhelm current satellite data capacity to handle the data over a given satellites service area. Hence the suggestion of a much lower rate for the satellite info.

    There is currently a project for ADS-B reception by satellite.
    BTW I've just seen your signature. Are you happy with the Pi and dump1090?

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    • Originally posted by MartH View Post
      Having probs with the other two vids. The audio sounds like Donald Duck! Working on it.
      Sorry you're having troubles. I do hope it works out though. I'll be standing by!

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      • Originally posted by Exadios View Post
        I believe that all commercial planes carry an EPIRB. These can be set off manually or automatically and transmit to low altitude satellites which then relay to a ground station. In addition all commercial aircraft (are meant to) monitor a certain VHF emergency frequency. So, if a VHF transmitter survives in working order then aircraft can be contacted.
        Actually EPIRB is primarily for maritime use. Aircraft carry an ELT that may or may not operate on the 406MHz EPIRB frequency. Many older ELTs that operate on the aviation guard frequencies (121.5, 243MHz).

        The main problem is in deployment. A plane crash happens much faster, and is far more violent than a sinking ship. According to NOAA only 12% of ELTs deploy in a crash, and most of those are from slower light aircraft. I wouldn't count on the ELT to bring help.

        But one of the main things about land is that it is where people live. I think most crashes on land are witnessed by someone.
        Yes, "follow the fireball" is how most over land crashes are spotted. Whether over land or sea, the use of radar and radio communications, and sharp ground operators is still the best way to raise the alarm when a plane goes down.

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        • Originally posted by Exadios View Post
          Yes. This gets back to the currently installed bandwidth issue.
          There's plenty of unused bandwidth on the LEO and MEO comsat services like Iridium. Currently the US Department of Defense is their #1 customer. A company like that would love to have the business, but the airlines aren't willing to pay.

          It should be noted that Inmarsat was started up with help from the UN. If there were regulations and international treaties that mandated such devices, the airlines would have to comply. But without pressure from the flying public that's not likely to happen.

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          • BBC Newsnight, March 20th UTC approx 2230Z

            Three clips I have uploaded:-

            NB: Broadcasted March 20th UTC approx 2230Z

            1) Program Intro.

            2) BBC reporter in Malaysia reports Ten Day delay in handling data from INMARSAT.

            3) INMARSAT's Chris McLaughlin suggests Tuesday to Thursday i.e. more like 2 or 3 days. Also interviewed: David Mearns of Blue Water Recoveries.

            Chris also asks "isn't it time to be mandate all aircraft having tracking devices on board" Has he been reading the Flightradar24 forum?



            Ah... forum only lets me post one at a time, I'll try a next post...
            Last edited by MartH; 2014-03-21, 10:25.

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            • #2 BBC reporter in Malaysia reports Ten Day delay

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              • #3 INMARSAT:-

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                • Originally posted by Jackflash View Post
                  The pinger is activated by immersion in water to automatically emit a ping once every second
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwater_locator_beacon
                  Thanks Jackflash for the corrected non-assumption-based clarification.

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                  • Apologies if these points have been raised already.(This post is already over 100 pages, and I am struggling to read through them all)


                    I know that it has been stated that it is highly unlikely that there would be any T3212 timer messages because the passengers mobile phones would have been switched off or are in the sea.

                    This may be true, but given the fact the the flight is now thought to have continued for significantly longer after the last known contact, it increases the chances that at least one passenger or crew member may have switched on their phone after realising that something was wrong with the flight.

                    Furthermore, it is highly unlikely that ALL the passengers switched their phones into flight mode or remembered to switch their phone of at the beginning of the flight.

                    In fact I find it incredible that no passenger or crew seems to have used their phone in some way after realising something untoward was happening with the flight.

                    Given that all else seems to have failed to locate the flight, I fail to see why this method has not at least been tried
                    if only as a last resort.

                    Any T3212 timer messages transmitted before plane crashed or sank would be helpful in determining the actual flight path and give a more factual location of where the plane may be.

                    Everyone has been indulging in a vast amount of speculation and it seems to me that that the quickest way to locate flight MH370 is as follows.

                    1. Malaysian Airlines obtain from each relative the mobile phone number that each passenger had.
                    2. Malaysian Airlines then contact each phone mobile operator and get them to check if the phone had sent any T3212 timer
                    messages to their server.

                    If I could contact search control I would send this to them, but perhaps someone on this forum might be able to pass this idea onto them.

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                    • Originally posted by thedcman View Post
                      I know that it has been stated that it is highly unlikely that there would be any T3212 timer messages because the passengers mobile phones would have been switched off or are in the sea.
                      That is exactly the reason they are searching the Southern Indian Ocean. The suspected flight path is thousands of kilometers from the nearest phone towers.
                      A pity none of the people on board had a SPOT messenger or SPOT connect with them (and switched on)

                      I know I'll be taking mine on any future flights.
                      - Matt
                      T-YPPH2

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                      • Originally posted by Exadios View Post
                        So do you envision this system complementing or replacing the CVR / FDR?
                        It would be prudent to get some real world operational experience and working out kinks before replacing something that has worked well.

                        "I can remember when what has become Inmarsat first started. It was in the mid 1970s and was called 'Marisat' then. It was run by a company called Scientific Atlanta."

                        I was familiar with their set-top boxes and as a SFA shareholder (till they were acquired by Cisco) but did not know that they were involved with Inmarsat so thanks for the info.

                        Also, coincidentally, today's NY Times carries a front page article on the pros and cons of streaming the Black Box data live via satellite:

                        The airline industry has sophisticated tools to follow planes and stream data from their flight recorders. But given cost and the general safety of air travel, neither the airlines nor regulators have used them.


                        "Long before Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 vanished on March 8, the global airline industry had sophisticated tools in hand to follow planes in real time and stream data from their flight recorders. But for a variety of reasons, mostly involving cost and how infrequently planes crash, neither the airlines nor their regulators adopted them."

                        Pro (Regulator - former chairman of the NTSB) :

                        “The technology is out there, but it’s just a question of political will to recognize this is important,” said Mark Rosenker, a former chairman of the National Transportation Safety Board and a retired Air Force major general. “What hasn’t improved is that we still have to wait to recover those boxes to begin accident investigations. Precious days are wasted.”

                        Con (industry consultant):

                        “Remember that this is an episodic event, so there is not a large current and present danger of it happening all over the world,” said Michael Boyd, an industry consultant. “Besides, it would be billions of dollars and a huge amount of infrastructure to collect the data.”

                        So, as Speed Daemon, predicted, it is the industry that is the stumbling block here and maybe the politicians will now muster the necessary courage to work to improve the system in same way, even if it is in a smaller way.

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                        • New PhoDir radar could carry more information

                          BBC News March 20 2014 (UTC) 1952Z

                          The new PhoDiR (Photonics-based fully digital radar) system is a working prototype for next-generation radars - designed to let pilots and air traffic control exchange far more information in a single signal.

                          (Ignore their "Normal aircraft tracking" "diagram" of existing RADAR/ACARS, it's just plain wrong.
                          (Also try to ignore the "sensational" headline)

                          A new advanced radar system has been tested successfully by scientists, but could it make a difference in the search for the missing plane?


                          Possible use for real-time Air to Ground recording?

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                          • Originally posted by MIT EE View Post
                            It would be prudent to get some real world operational experience and working out kinks before replacing something that has worked well.

                            “Remember that this is an episodic event, so there is not a large current and present danger of it happening all over the world,” said Michael Boyd, an industry consultant. “Besides, it would be billions of dollars and a huge amount of infrastructure to collect the data.”

                            So, as Speed Daemon, predicted, it is the industry that is the stumbling block here and maybe the politicians will now muster the necessary courage to work to improve the system in same way, even if it is in a smaller way.
                            I hope that the INMARSAT guys ARE reading this and thinking forward. Get China to supply the hardware at low cost... The only real expense is probably the exhorbitant fees charged by "consultants" to do litte more than write useless reports :P

                            So right now the vote in favour of worldwide contuous aircraft tracking is (probably) most of us, especially those who fly. The guy from INMARSAT and the the NTSB guy.

                            One flaw... where is Mike gonna get the data for fr24 from when 1090MHz goes dark? (in about 50 years knowing how sluggish the politico's cab be!

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                            • A Bombardier Global 6000 returning from the search area.

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                              • Originally posted by Exadios View Post
                                A Bombardier Global 6000 returning from the search area.
                                Good catch Exadios! He (GLEX) slotted in nicely on final between two 737's (Good thing they weren't 747's Woulda been a bumpy ride down the glide slope!

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